One voice, revenge, hate...

[Kharpert]

Well, it looks like you don't have a tough job because almost everyone is a Turkhater here, only some don't express it as straightforwardly and violently as you do. So good luck!

We don't like whiners. Don't call us "Turkhaters" before you want us to think of you as childish.

Some of them, such as Chechnia and Crimea, simply ceased to exist and remained part of Russia until today.

Crimea is a territory which is part of the Russian nation. Armenia, Kazakhastan, etc. etc. were nations during the Soviet Union, preceding which some where colonies

No nation by the name of Chechnia or Crimea ever existed.

[imported_Hellektor]

You reap what you sow

It is an ugly, disturbing, and sad fact that most working Armenian churches were either destroyed, or left to be destroyed by natural causes in Turkey. That probably had to do with cover-up operations, which served the official 'Armenian churches?, what Armenians? I did not see any!' purpose. This very much characterized Turkish official attitude until 1980s. Unfortunately, I did not know about it until recently in order to be able to give a damn!

Lately, however, steps are being taken to correct past injustices. These steps may be too slow, too little, too late for you. Even recognition of genocide may be too little, too late for you. But I wonder why do you spend so much time and effort to trascribe your hate into words, theories, and arguments when nobody knows better than you? Are you here to instruct your fellow Armenians that they should hate today's Turks no matter how responsive, self-critical, and emphatetic they are?

Well, it looks like you don't have a tough job because almost everyone is a Turkhater here, only some don't express it as straightforwardly and violently as you do. So good luck!

When you can express yourself in a civilized manner like this I will respond you in the same tone.

Don't you ever read the original comment that results in my rather unfriendly response?

What's it when most Turkish posters who have never read a single book about the genocide (and YES you should exactly read those that your government dismisses as propaganda), repeat the same old clichés "it was war... people died. Armenians betrayed their masters so we gave them hell, etc." what would you want me to say?

[Hovik]

Hellektor often brings great points. And one that he brings now that I have brought in the past and has never been addressed - NEVER - is how most Turkish members have never read a single Armenian book on the Genocide, let alone any non-Turkish Propaganda book on the Genocide.

Do you think it is right that these individuals come to the forum and argue against the world on this subject without reading a single book on the subject that hasn't been written by the Turkish Government?

Doesn't anyone find this mind boggling? How can Turks avoid such a fascinating point?

[Kharpert]

Or, if not any literature, one could at least read this thesis.

[Vogelgrippe]

Fellow Vogelgrippe,

I fully understand your geo-history of “Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Chechnya, Armenia, …etc). But you can not mix apples with oranges. Chechnya is a centrally located peace of real estate in the mother land Russia. There is no historical distinct identity associated with Chechens, other than a regional identity, except that recently acquired and amplified Islamic identity that was absent and nullified during USSR. It is this Islamist identity that craves independence. An enforced identity which is due to militant, extremist, terrorist, Islamists (no disrespect to many peaceful Moslems) who get their agenda, orders, and money from outside Chechnya sources.

Put yourself in the place of Russia; how would you feel if a stranger comes and occupies the center of your living room (a small spot), a stranger who has beliefs hostile to yours? Is that ok with you, since Independence of Chechnya is!

Khanate of Crimea was a vassal state of Ottoman Empire until 1774. In 1774, with the Treaty of Kucuk Kaynarca, Ottomans were forced to grant independence to Crimea. In 1783, Crimea was invaded and annexed by Russia. The nation who lived in Crimea were called Crimean Tatars.

Chechens, like Dagistanis and Ingush, lived in their independent kingdoms until they were invaded by Russians in 1791, after 6 years of futile resistance. Only in 1860, entire Chechnya was under Russian control. And BTW, today’s Chechnya is not in the middle of Russia, it is on Russia’s southern flank, bordering on Georgia.

The only difference between Latvia, Estonia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Georgia, on the one hand, and Chechnya & Crimea is that the latter were relatively successfully integrated & assimilated into Russia. Now Russia may have a legitimate point that these territories are an integral part of Russian homeland, and want to keep it that way.

It doesn’t change the fact, however, that also Chechnya and Crimea was populated, until 200 years ago, by its native people, and not by Russians. Like the rest of Caucasian, Central Asian, and Baltic countries, they had lost their independence to Russian expansionism. In their case, however, the loss of independence was irreversible. Therefore, the U.S and European Union are supporting the autonomy, not the independence of Chechnya.

I am only posting this in order to counter the claim that Russia is and was not an expansionist country. Russia may have changed its ways in the last 15 years, but it should be remembered that they didn’t stop invading until 1980s (Afghanistan).

Crimea is a territory which is part of the Russian nation. Armenia, Kazakhastan, etc. etc. were nations during the Soviet Union, preceding which some where colonies

No nation by the name of Chechnia or Crimea ever existed.

I believe I have a right to correct you that nations by name of Chechnia or Crimea existed, which I did above. I don't think this has anything to do with whining.

[Hovik]

Or, if not any literature, one could at least read this thesis.

I was just reading the citations on this thesis. The one for where Mrs. Lipstadt draws the number 1.5Million victims caught my eye.

Why? Because Turks are always saying Armenians pull this number out of the air - or elsewhere. Armenians base this number on what they already know from eyewitnesses. Here is what I found:

"10. According to German Interim Ambassador to Turkey, Radowitz, 1.5 million Armenians died and 425,000 survived. A.A. Türkei 183/44. A27493, October 4, 1916 report. The German parliamentarian, Foreign Office Intelligence Director, and later Cabinet minister, Erzberger, estimated 1.5 million victims. A.A. Türkei 183/42, A13959, May 27, 1916 report. German major Endres, serving in the Turkish army, estimated that "1.2 million Armenians perished in Turkey during the war." Die Türkei. Munich: C.H. Beck, 1918, p. 161. Austrian Vice Marshal Pomiankowski declared that "approximately one million Armenians perished," [n. 2], p. 160. Austrian consul at Trabzon and Samsun, Dr. Kwatkiowski, reported to Vienna on March 13, 1918 that "in round figure 1 million Armenians were with studied cruelty deported from the six eastern Anatolian provinces as well as from Trabzon province and Samsun district. From these only a fraction could escape death." Austrian Foreign Ministry Archives 12 Türkei/380, ZI.17/pol. Austria-Hungary's Adrianople (Edirne) consul Dr. Nadamlenzki reported that from the entire realm of the Ottoman Empire, including its European part, by October 29, 1915 "already 1.5 million Armenians were deported." 12 Türkei/463, Z.94/P."

Important note: Genocide by definition includes more than just those murdered. Deported, maimed, those effected by sterilization efforts, etc. must always be included in the figures.

[imported_Hellektor]

Let's play the numbers game!

I was just reading the citations on this thesis. The one for where Mrs. Lipstadt draws the number 1.5Million victims caught my eye.

Why? Because Turks are always saying Armenians pull this number out of the air - or elsewhere. Armenians base this number on what they already know from eyewitnesses. Here is what I found:

"10. According to German Interim Ambassador to Turkey, Radowitz, 1.5 million Armenians died and 425,000 survived. A.A. Türkei 183/44. A27493, October 4, 1916 report. The German parliamentarian, Foreign Office Intelligence Director, and later Cabinet minister, Erzberger, estimated 1.5 million victims. A.A. Türkei 183/42, A13959, May 27, 1916 report. German major Endres, serving in the Turkish army, estimated that "1.2 million Armenians perished in Turkey during the war." Die Türkei. Munich: C.H. Beck, 1918, p. 161. Austrian Vice Marshal Pomiankowski declared that "approximately one million Armenians perished," [n. 2], p. 160. Austrian consul at Trabzon and Samsun, Dr. Kwatkiowski, reported to Vienna on March 13, 1918 that "in round figure 1 million Armenians were with studied cruelty deported from the six eastern Anatolian provinces as well as from Trabzon province and Samsun district. From these only a fraction could escape death." Austrian Foreign Ministry Archives 12 Türkei/380, ZI.17/pol. Austria-Hungary's Adrianople (Edirne) consul Dr. Nadamlenzki reported that from the entire realm of the Ottoman Empire, including its European part, by October 29, 1915 "already 1.5 million Armenians were deported." 12 Türkei/463, Z.94/P."

The Turks are simply playing their favorite numbers game.
They have always known that they were the minority. That is why they always inflated their numbers and deflated that of the "subjects".
Besides, there has NEVER been a census modern style in the Ottoman Tyranny. The numbers were ALWAYS estimations.

To calculate the approximate number of the Armenians in the period before the Great Genocide, just think of the number of churches.
2200 churches for how many people?
As a comparison there are about 30000 mosques in Iran, a very religious country.
30 thousand for 70 million makes a mosque for 2333 people.
For 2200 churches there MUST HAVE BEEN at least 4.5 million CHRISTIAN Armenians in occupied Western Armenia before 1915.
We do not even mention the Islamized Armenians in Trabizon and around, who were forcefully turkified right from the 16th century.

I have also thought about estimating the number of the KILLED victims. Tell me what you think of the feasibility of this.
The Armenians can set up an organization, where volunteers would go and gather information from the Armenians in Diaspora about their family members who were slaughtered in 1915.
They can ask for first and last names, their relation to the family, dates of birth and even photos in case available.
This will be a very expensive and time consuming project but it is worth it.
It will only reflect the victims of the families who were not entirely exterminated or those that survived and procreated in Diaspora.
It will certainly be a slap in the faces of numbers game players.

For whatever you believe in's sake: they invaded the region in the 11th century where millions of indigenous people had lived for millennia.
Regarding the Armenians, there were several tens of thousands of invaders compared to 4 to 5 million Armenians. As late as the 17th and the 18th centuries, the Armenians were the absolute majority as testified by travelers such as Tavernier and their own records.

It's stupefying that the killing of 6 to 7000 Turkish men (women and children were spared) by Serbs is defined as genocide and suspects are being tried at international tribunals, where a crime of this magnitude that wiped the entire Armenian homeland under Ottoman rule of its indigenous inhabitants, has been swept under Ottoman non-flying carpet for 90 years.

Important note: Genocide by definition includes more than just those murdered. Deported, maimed, those effected by sterilization efforts, etc. must always be included in the figures.

It's also not less important that keeping Armenian natural progress behind for a thousand years and the countless acts of genocide have made us a nation spread all over the world in danger of assimilation, whereas without the Turkish calamity Armenia would have been a prosperous and powerful nation (nobody doubts the industriousness and cultural richness of the Armenians),
not behind Switzerland and with a population of 30 to 40 million.

They did not kill 1.5 million Armenians, they killed 30 million.

[Reincarnated Am]

My Father-in-law, (in Armenia) always said he has maps and documents that shows there were around 7 million Armenians living in western Armenia, but I never had the chance to see them, next time (in Summer) when I go to Armenia, I will photograph all these maps and documents. once I have them I will post them here if it is possible.

[TurQ]

At those times total of 13-15 million were living in Anatolia. 7 million does not sound logical.

My Father-in-law, (in Armenia) always said he has maps and documents that shows there were around 7 million Armenians living in western Armenia, but I never had the chance to see them, next time (in Summer) when I go to Armenia, I will photograph all these maps and documents. once I have them I will post them here if it is possible.

[Reincarnated Am]

At those times total of 13-15 million were living in Anatolia. 7 million does not sound logical.

According to whom?