One voice, revenge, hate...

[Heathenpride]

I am a Turkish citizen who has a Kurdish father and a Turkish mother living in Istanbul. And I have some Armenian relatives on my other side who lives here in Istanbul.

I am generally reading the articles and comments which are posting by Armenians all over the world and what can i see is, unfortunatly, Armenians all over the worlds are generally more racists then Turkish people.

Just last night evening, i was in Istiklâl Street and in one music shop a greek music was playing and after 100 metre, i have heard the Armenian version on "Sari Gelin". It's orginally an Armenian folk song but Turkish people know that song too of its Turkish version. The district where i live, Kartal, where has 20 km distance by Bosphorus has an Armenian Church which is standing tall. And Armenian kids can actually study in their schools and generally the population of Armenians are very richer than Turkish people. After Armenia, Turkey is the country where have the Armenians schools as most in the world.

My mother is from the city Antakya, and there is one town which has an Armenian mayor who is Christian. And again in Antayla, in "Azhab-i Keyf" where has the first church in the world, people, both muslems and christians are praying for god in same place for hundreds of years.

Here in Istanbul, there is a mosque in Ortaköy which is built by an Armenian artitecht and just near it, there is a synagogue.

During the XIII. century, while jewish and arabian people were killing in Spain, the Ottoman sultan Suleiman has welcomed arabian people to istanbul. but when he sees that Jewish people are under trouble too, he decides to take them too here to istanbul.

Ottomans can be consired as barbarians for some people but it's another truth that they have suffered a lot. In balkans, Kont Vlad, Kazikli Voyvoda or with his legendery name, Drakula has been killed many turkish people in weird ways.

While the collution of Ottomans, many Turkish people have been killed in Balcans but in Arabian countries too. My grandfather's father have fighed against Arabians and England in Yemen and he was one of a few person who could return back to his home. But just after it, in another battle, he had to face against Russians.

And what the old people who lived these years, they say many Armenian people have been killed by we turks in that chaos.

But it's still diffrent from how Nazi's acted to Jews, because it was not systematicly. Also, Armenians guerillas were well gunned and they really have thousands of Turkish people too. During that years it's right many Armenian people have died becasuse of starvation but it was same for the turkish people in anatolia.

It can still understandable that Armenians can try to proove if here was a genocide or not to the world and i cannot say anything against it.

But what i see is that, most of Armenian people are just looking for a way to damage Turkish image in the world. It's making us sad that you are showing like all of we Turkish people are murderers.

I would like all you to visit Turkey before talking about here and Turkish people.

Just last summer, here, i have welcomed a group of greek people. and they really suprised to see that turkish people were really so nice and warm to them.

Our relations should be based on to meet, the first thing should not be the query of us because of the events what happened one century ago.

I hate the topic of "we" and "others".

I am, personally a world citizen and i can never fell like an enemy of someone because of the other person's politic view or race.

[Gavur]

Turkish Lawyer Defends Muslim Right To 'Holy War'

Published: 12/20/2005
Latest wire from AFP






ISTANBUL - The lawyer for several suspects accused of terrorist attacks in Istanbul that killed 63 people, Tuesday defended a Muslim`s right to wage a holy war in closing arguments before an Istanbul court.
"Is it possible to judge people who have nothing to do with the facts of the case just because they praise holy war?" asked Osman Karahan, lawyer for a dozen or so of the accused.

"If we open this door, tomorrow we will be judging those who fast or those who pray," said Karahan.

The lawyer also evoked the "invasion of Muslim countries" such as Bosnia, Iraq and Palestine, in making his point to the panel of secular judges.

"After Damascus, it will be Istanbul`s turn, with the same massacres as in Bosnia," said Karahan, who went on to add that holy war was an obligation for every Muslim.

Following Karahan`s arguments, several other lawyers pleaded their clients` innocence, saying they were being judged not for the November 2003 attacks in Istanbul but for participating in military training in Afghanistan or the struggle against Russian troops in Chechnya.

The suicide, car bomb attacks in Turkey`s economic capital targeted two Istanbul synagogues, the British consulate and a branch of the British bank HSBC.

Aside from the 63 killed, more than 750 people were wounded.

Of 71 people charged with the attacks, only 29 are in jail.

The public prosecutor has called for life imprisonment for four of the accused and jail terms of 22 years for 36 others. He recommended that 31 others be acquitted.

Several of the defendants` lawyers have asked for the trial to be deferred to give them more time to prepare closing arguments.

[Kharpert]

To mend relationships between Armenians and Turks, the Armenian Genocide must be taught and discussed, not ignored.

We don't generalize about Turks or Armenians here. Racism is not tolerated on these forums, so rest assured no one here is going to be shouted down just because of their nationality. How you are treated on these forums has everything to do with what you say, not who you are.

[hitite]

Heathenpride, your post is valuable in the sense that it really does portray a longing for an understnading between two peoples.

Kharpert I do not agree that mending relationships between the two communities has a prerequisite of teaching the genocide. Given that the majority of Turks do not call the massacres genocide teaching could be out of the question at least for a decade, discussion however has already started. I think the Greek example is highly significant. Even though you may not be able to talk about Turks loving Greeks or vice versa there is so much interaction between the two countries economically, culturally and politically that enmities have become rather redundant. There is a lot of "sitting down and talking about the past" going on between Turks and Greeks. This has clearly effected political relations too. Both Turks and Greeks have stories about how the raped eachothers women and burnt crosses and mosques etc. bu talking about it, which they are, is soothing it. (Historically however one should also bear in mind that the GrecoTurkish experience is very different than the Turcoarmenian one.)

Talking about the horrors of the past is also part of the healing process, not only recognition, and this can help feelings of revenge turn into understanding. Turks and Armenians may never love eachother in a world where supporters of opposing football clubs are killing eachother. But the two really have to start understanding eachother. As I have said before real recognition can only be the recognition of the Turkish people not the government.

[Kharpert]

hitite, when I say "taught and discussed", I mean the Genocide issue should not be swept under the carpet; Armenians and Turks should know abou the issue and discuss it in a civilized manner rather than just ignoring it as a "thing of the past". Of course, the Genocide should by no means be the only indicator of Turkish Armenian relations, but this is one issue among any that must be discussed.

[Hovik]

I must say that I praise the way in which this issue is being discussed, keep it up.

Shnorhavor Surp Tsnoondt!!!

[Kharpert]

Շնորհաւոր Սուրբ Ծնունդ

[TurQ]

Hi All

I am having a brief visit to Turkey/Istanbul. I didnt have much time to follow what's going on here lately.

In my brief response, I would like to say that Hitite's approach is crucial. Understanding and empathy is important to solve this particular problem. I think 90+ years of seperation and lack of interaction has its own devestating effect. After all humans are meant to speak each other(as we say Insanlar konusa konusa..) At this point our Armenians(the istanbulians) can play the negotiator role.

Thanks for the post Hitite.

Heathenpride, your post is valuable in the sense that it really does portray a longing for an understnading between two peoples.

Kharpert I do not agree that mending relationships between the two communities has a prerequisite of teaching the genocide. Given that the majority of Turks do not call the massacres genocide teaching could be out of the question at least for a decade, discussion however has already started. I think the Greek example is highly significant. Even though you may not be able to talk about Turks loving Greeks or vice versa there is so much interaction between the two countries economically, culturally and politically that enmities have become rather redundant. There is a lot of "sitting down and talking about the past" going on between Turks and Greeks. This has clearly effected political relations too. Both Turks and Greeks have stories about how the raped eachothers women and burnt crosses and mosques etc. bu talking about it, which they are, is soothing it. (Historically however one should also bear in mind that the GrecoTurkish experience is very different than the Turcoarmenian one.)

Talking about the horrors of the past is also part of the healing process, not only recognition, and this can help feelings of revenge turn into understanding. Turks and Armenians may never love eachother in a world where supporters of opposing football clubs are killing eachother. But the two really have to start understanding eachother. As I have said before real recognition can only be the recognition of the Turkish people not the government.

[Perdikaraki]

But what i see is that, most of Armenian people are just looking for a way to damage Turkish image in the world. It's making us sad that you are showing like all of we Turkish people are murderers.

It's making YOU sad? Mamma mia, dear heathen, of course not all Turks are guilty. But while you may be sad, please do yourself a favor and transcend your own small world and perception. Please open the mind and the wisdom given you as a human to consider the damnation commited indeed by the Turks against the Christians of the land. Please do yourself and your country a favor by dwelling not in the arena of lies and deception -- since in such a place only darkness will reign -- but step out of that, and step up--yes, up--into the land in which truth reigns--as painful as that truth is, as damning as it may be to your forebearers, as painful to your own national pride, to your own heart and personal identity.
Something god-awful happened in the early 20th century, when Turks unleashed unspeakable cruelty against Armenians and Greeks. This is acknowledged, recorded, and mourned by everyone, everyone, it seems, who saw it, and who lived through it, everyone, except those who committed it.
Remember that God sees the truth and waits. Though there may never be justice on this earth against the Turks who commited the acts of demons against fellow humans, those who commited these acts will answer for their deeds, if left unconfessed and unforgiven. And so you see, just as a friendship cannot continue if one friend hurt another and refuses to apologize and makes amends, so Turkey's relationship with those whom it hurt cannot begin again until Turkey confesses its guilt and begins again. There is no other way, even if one is a heathen, to step into life and light, but to dwell in truth. Amen.

[sue35205]

just like an apple that has a warm inside.

I am a Turkish citizen ......I am generally reading the articles and comments which are posting by Armenians all over the world and what can i see is, unfortunatly, Armenians all over the worlds are generally more racists then Turkish people...........

To my learned fellow Heathenpride,

You certainly come across educated and in sound moral foundation, but your argument is utterly flawed:

1- How many of your ancestors were massacred in cold blood due to their ethnicity during the Armenian Genocide? Your answer is none! Therefore, you lack the emotional sensitivity to grasp the chore issue my friend, which issue is a Genocide which the Turkish Nation has persistently refused and is refusing to recognize. And your superficial references to music and etc. remain exactly that, superficial!

2- As I said, you come across cultured, but as you know, you are in extreme minority among Turks and, as I suspect, you do not have much to relate to your own roots, as you, rightfully, will cherish the opportunity to live in US or Western Europe! Tell me I am wrong!

3- Tell me, deep inside, you do believe in Individual rights, Civil Liberties, Freedom of Speech, social values which elevate a man to a “free man”? Tell me, are you proud of your Turkish past or present standards on Exercise (not pretence of exercise) of such Human Liberties? Can you tell why so many of your countrymen, as soon as they acquire some education are destined to live elsewhere, but Turkey? My opinion is that this is because Turkish Civilization and Culture is flawed and hollow from within, just like an apple that has a warm inside. It is not if the apple will rot to surface, but when! And should you decide to enlighten me with answers, then kindly also tell me what is the cultural significance of the Turkish word “AYOB” to a Turk?