Why Turkey doesn't recognize.

[Tongue]

As for brainwashing, we can always accept the other side is brainwashed. We believe that our opinions are true. But other side is the other side. Why he/she is other side is because of thinking in different way. For me, a religion believer lives with nothingness. Is he/she brainwashed for me. I can't say certain thing. For some, yes. But for the other ones it may be no. To decide about this is very hard. By philosophical ways, one can reach the God existence. What a praiseable action. And one can believe the God for it is just said so. Here it is! A brainwashed one for me. He or she is not questioning anything, just accept it. Friedrich Nietzsche's super-person tries to question everything. Why must we accept some thing as it is without questioning it?

When it comes to the Armenian genocide, there is more than enough facts and proof for a reasonable person to acknowledge it. That said, when the other side starts distorting the facts, playing with numbers, and trying to label it a war and not a genocide and gets it's own people to accept it, that's when we start to use the term brainwashed for the people who buy into the lies of their government.

[imported_Hellektor]

It never existed before 1918 and a nation called "Azeri" never existed, period

Hellektor had written 'a country Azerbaijan...never existed before 1918'. So what does it mean? Is that denial of Azerbaijcan? I don't know. But it is not good for one who ciritisizes Turkey for denial of Armenian genocide.

Tatars not "Azeris", the same wolfish breed...

A fine example of "Azeri" atrocities in 1905-1906

Here some intro I have written earlier:
"Since the Turks always play the Indo-European-Aryan card (in an inverse manner), i.e. whatever is not Indo-European-Aryan is Turkish(!), it's ironic that the origin of the word Azerbaijan is traced back to the language family the Turks always refer to as a proof of the "non"-ethnicity of the people of the real Azarbaijan. After Alexander's victory over Darius III and the fall of the Achemenid empire, Iran came under the Seleucide rule soon after Alexander's death. However, a satrap named Atropat (Atropates) established an independent state in the northwest region of Iran (known as Median Iran) which from then on was called Aturpayegan or Aturpadegan (in Old Persian or Parthian) after him. After some 23 centuries, the region is still called Atrpatakan in Armenian as opposed to Adrbeijan which is used to designate the bogus state north of the region.

It should be noted that the Persian language undewent substantial changes after the Arab invasion. The Iranians, unlike almost all the other conquered nations managed to keep their language at the cost of thousands of original words being replaced by their Arabic equivalents and countless others adapting their pronounciation to some kind of Perso-Arabic, cf. "pardis" = paradise became "ferdows", "Pars" became "Fars", etc.

Rejecting the customs and laws of the Arabs, Armenians held on to their culture at the cost of centuries long suffering and oppression under the Arab tyranny. As a result a considerable number of words can still be found in Armenian that share their roots with Pahlavi and other old Persian languages. The word Azarbaijan is the Persianized form of the Arabized word for Aturpadegan, the "z" sound replacing the Arabic "dhal" which is sort of like the voiced "th" in "this", not existing in Persian. As stated earlier the Arabized word "Adrbeijan" is used in Armenian for the artificially created state, "d" being considered closer to the "dhal" than "z" in Armenian which also does not have any form of the "th" sound."

Why do I include this intro? In fact they don't have the RIGHT to use the name Azerbaijan, which they have stolen from the Iranians and they don't have the RIGHT to call themselves "Azeri" either because they have nothing to do, racially, historically, linguistically, etc. with the real Azarbaijan.
The benefit of the name Azerbaijan for the Bolsheviks was that they thought they would grab the real Azarbaijan from Iran and realize their centuries long dream of presence in the Middle-East, in fact in 1946 they did invade Iran and annexed the real Azarbaijan to the USSR but they had to retreat later.
The benefit for the Turks was again to "unite" the real and the fake Azar/"Azer"baijan and thus, be one step closer to the realization of their sick Pan-Turkist dream.
The sad thing is that the Iranians didn't protest (or maybe they did?). IMHO, they also may have thought that one day they could reclaim the territory, since it was under their occupation before Russians took it from them.
In any case, everything is in a name when it comes to this artificial Frankenstein "nation". Look at their "history" books and see how they are claiming everything Iranian, since the time of Zoroaster(!) to Babak-e-Khorrmdin, and from Safavis to Nezami, because they don't have a history or culture. Here from the Villari's book, same Nakhijevan chapter:

"The Tartars having no civilization of their own, imitated that of Persia, just as the Turks adopted an imitation of Arab culture."

The bogus nation called "Azeri" were actually called Tatars or Tartars before the artificial creation of this extension of Turkey by the treacherous Bolsheviks and the Turks. I cannot mention all the atrocities committed by the Turks, you do your research how these Tatars brought Enver to this part of the Caucasus and all the massacres and destructions we know from the Ottoman Tyranny were replayed here.
Still, Azari was a term used to designate the language of the inhabitants of the real Azarbaijan, which was a dialect of Pahlavi Persian. Of course, after the forced Turkification of the Iranians of the region, the term was still used to designate the language again, which by now had become Turkish, to distinguish it from other Turkic dialects/languages.

There are interesting articles related to Azarbaijan (real) and its language here, but its in Persian and I wish I'll find the time to translate some of it sometime...

A nation called "Azeri" has NEVER existed throughout history, period.

Iraq, Syria, Algeria, Jordan...etc. are never existed before WWI too.

The people living in those countries are the INDIGENOUS people of the region, though Arabized and Islamized, they don't occupy the country of a nation that is alive today.

They are third World countries like Turkey. Musn't they be? We know there is the first time for everything to be existed on the World. Musn't we let the new thing be existed? This is strange. Maybe he is thinking Azerbiajan have occupied some part of Armenia.

Turkey MUSTN'T BE, because it occupies the homeland of nations who are still alive. Worse, after using and abusing and taxing and raping and stealing their kids and women and genes and burning and destroying their homes and churches and schools and shops, etc. and throwing them out of their homes, they shamelessly deny everything.
And Azerbaijan has not "occupied some part of Armenia"
Azerbaijan is "founded", read artificially created on Armenian territory.
Consult all the maps of the world and you see that a country called Azerbaijan north of the Arax river did not exist before 1918, and Armenia extended in the east to the river Kur until the 19th century. Earlier, Armenia reached the Caspian sea but that's perhaps long time ago, in beautiful ages where a "people" called the Turks still wouldn't be "known" for a thousand years...

Babylonian Clay Tablet 600 BC

Babylonian Clay Tablet 600 BC Interpreted

Ptolemy Tabvla nova Asia Minoris 1513

Sebastian Munster Asia Minor 1544

Philippe de La Rue: Asia Minor 1652 (Section)

Frederik de Wit Nova Persiae Armeniae Natoliae et Arabiae 1662

Kiepert: Asian Turkey 1872 (Section)

Reconstruction of Ashkharhatsouits, see for yourself how much of Armenia the bogus country is occupying

Armenians established a few states in history that were for short time. They generally lived under the other nations control before Ottoman Empire existed. Lastly they tried to establish a country including East Anatolia but they failed. I don't condemn them for this. Every nation can do such a thing. When they success what a happy thing for them. Morever I don't approve that its response is genocide.

This is one of the greatest falsifications of your fascist government, check this post for the names of Armenian kings and eat your heart out! And beware, it really annoys me when you guys call Armenia "Eastern Anatolia", unless you can present a historic, pre-Genocide document or a map that calls Armenia by this offensive name, do not repeat this, or I'm afraid I'll have to add you to my ignore list. Thanks for your disapproval of Genocide though.

As for brainwashing, we can always accept the other side is brainwashed. We believe that our opinions are true. But other side is the other side. Why he/she is other side is because of thinking in different way. For me, a religion believer lives with nothingness. Is he/she brainwashed for me? I can't say a certain thing. For some, yes. But for the other ones it may be no. To decide about this is very hard. By philosophical ways, one can reach the God existence. What a praiseable action. And one can believe the God for it is just said so. Here it is! A brainwashed one for me. He or she is not questioning anything, just accept it. Friedrich Nietzsche's super-person tries to question everything. Why must we accept some thing as it is?

Cosmos, do read some VALID books on the Armenian Genocide, exactly those that your fascist government doesn't want you to read and judge for yourself who is brainwashed and who is telling the truth. There is no philosophy involved in the reality of the history of the Turks and the Armenians so, what you are doing is just sophism not philosophical argument.

[cosmos]

Hellektor.

Okey your writing is informative. I dont have enough information about Azerbaijan history and will search if I can find good sources.

With connectig it to Armenia history I want to point that the region where Turkey have been established has complicated history. Yes, we know many nations established different states in this region and many naitons came and went. Therefore it is very hard to explain the region’s history exactly. And I am not the one of who bases the Turkey history on Central Asia only. It is nonsense for me. What happened the indigenous people of Anatolia? I dont think they disappeared completely. Moreover too many people in Turkey, arent like Turks that they are supposed to. They must be mixed until they came to Anatolia and with Anatolians too. And collapsing of Ottoman Empire have made the region more complicated. After foundation of Turkish Republic some people came from to the state from Balkans who were Islamized. Besides some of them have blond hair and light-colored eyes who dont resemble to any Asian race too.

For example, my mothers ancestors were from Creete Island and I know many people here who came from Creete. And, as far as I know, no Turks moved or were sent to Creete in the times of Ottomans. But, because of they were Muslim or Islamized, they had to come to Turkey so it is an another example for deportation. Even Greeks didnt force them, what happened their properties? And what happened to the properties of my father’s family in Salonica City of Greece? You can guess it. And today, Turks(?) who are still in Greece or Bulgaria are put under restraint too. Although some of them indigenous due to being Islamized they had to come to Turkey.

If Turkey had NOT existed what would have happened to those people? I don’t know. Maybe we would have seen the another massacres like Serbians did recently.

I don’t reject the Ancient Major Armenia. But is it possible to build it again? In history, borders every time changed. For example, there were Austria-Hungary Empire in the central Europe. Yes, as you said the indigenous people are still there, but who can found the Empire again? This problem (Armenia) must have solved before Lousainne Pact. It is too late for this.

My solution is:

Making the Armenians Turkish citizens who are willing to and whose origins are from Turkey. Then giving them properties from Turkey. So they can sell them or if they like they can live in Turkey.

[1.5 million]

Cosmos I appreciate your positive attitude and your willingness to think about this issues as displayed in your last post. But as you imply - many of these issues are raher complicated. In the history of the Ottoman Empire - when the Turks captured territories - such as Crete and the Balkan regions the Ottomans established themselves as the ruling land holding caste. They instituted laws which highly favored Muslim identity in regards to legal rights and ability to prosper econmically, politically and as a matter of status. A great many conquered peoples - particularly in the Balkans converted to become Muslims in order to take advantage of this status. Those who remained Christian suffered under a great deal of repression and mistreatment - being (turned into and) comprised mostly of serfs who were unable to own their own land and actually function as citizens in their own nations. The Ottoman system of "management" included a great deal of repressive measures to keep these people under yolk. Beginning in the late 17th and early 18th centuries - corresponding iwth the rise of Russian power and extended influence into areas connected to these regions the issue of the repression of their fellow Orthodox co-religionists began to get some notice and with the overall decline in relative ottoman military power and influence the hold that the ottomans had on these lands began to weaken. The locals were eventually able to rise up against the repression - which had become even greater as the ottomans reacted to expressions of reform and hopes for independence on the part of the locals. When these various peoples eventually were able to free themselves (usually with Russian or in the case of the greeks English help) the backlash against the former Ottoman masters and often against the greeks and slavics and such who had converted and were seen as collaborators with the occupiers was at times severe. This is why many of these people were either ousted or fled to Turkey. So you must understand these things in their proper context.

I don't think that there is any real serious concept of the State/nation of Turkey going away and Turks being ousted from Anatolia or such - I would hope that (reasonable/modern) people are beyond such barbaric thoughts. Obviously the Turks of today are a mix of the various Turkic people who immigrated into Anatolia from various places and those (non-Turks mostly various Slavs, Greeks and Armenians..and perhaps the remnants of a few Crusaders and other internationals who had found their way into the region [including the Balkans who later came to Anatolia etc]at various times) who were native to Anatolia and surrounding areas.

I apreciate your offer/concept of accepting (Diaporan etc) Armenians into the Turkish state/nation - however this is likely impractical (and at this point in time not desirable - and the reasons should be obvious0 at this point in time. Certainly if the Turkish state were to radically change and break with the past ans its past sordid history this may be another matter. The idea of allowing Armenians to return to thier native lands is perhaps a good one - again with differetn circumstances and perhaps we will eventually have to be somewhat creative in the political sense to enable this to occur - again at this time we are far from a state where this could ever happen. I would love to see Turkey eventually confront its history and that of the Ottomans and "come clean" in respect to the Armenains and other Christians who were variously slaughtered and expelled etc and perhaps one day Turkey might mature as a society and be able to offer some of these regions or subsets of such to Armenians and take some actions toward reparation and raproachment. Even the offer for such - and even a token - the idea perhaps of offering Ani and Aktamar island and perhaps some surrounding areas near Kars and Van and such and of course Ararat mountain - if not fully to the Armenians (somehow I don't see that likely ever happening) - but under some kind of arrangement where Armenains might be encouraged to settle there under special circumstance and the monuments and the mountain etc perhaps allowed some degree of Armenian or international cultural control or trustiship - don't know really - but even the offer itself and the willingtness to consider such would have great value I think

[Hovik]

some thoughts

For example, my mothers ancestors were from Creete Island and I know many people here who came from Creete. And, as far as I know, no Turks moved or were sent to Creete in the times of Ottomans. But, because of they were Muslim or Islamized, they had to come to Turkey so it is an another example for deportation. Even Greeks didnt force them, what happened their properties? And what happened to the properties of my father’s family in Salonica City of Greece? You can guess it. And today, Turks(?) who are still in Greece or Bulgaria are put under restraint too. Although some of them indigenous due to being Islamized they had to come to Turkey.

Cosmos,
First off, I'd like to say how much I admire your recent attempts to be objective and speak on a level at which intelligent, mature discussions can be held.

I wish you would tell me more about what happened to your mothers ancestors from Creete. I don't think I fully understand what you were trying to say in your above remarks. You say nobody forced them to leave Creete, yet because they were islamized they had to leave. I was wondering what was it that made them have to leave? There is a good chance that I am simply overlooking a bit of history, but I was hoping you could tell me more.

If Turkey had NOT existed what would have happened to those people? I don’t know. Maybe we would have seen the another massacres like Serbians did recently.

Not quite sure what you mean here again. I certainly wouldn't agree with you if you were to suggest that Turkey is the preventer of massacre amongst ethnic groups! Explain deeper if you could.

I don’t reject the Ancient Major Armenia. But is it possible to build it again? In history, borders every time changed. For example, there were Austria-Hungary Empire in the central Europe. Yes, as you said the indigenous people are still there, but who can found the Empire again? This problem (Armenia) must have solved before Lousainne Pact. It is too late for this.

Again,
Thank you for your positive, proactive attitude in this dialogue. I am glad to see that you are posing the question instead of answering it for us, or immediatly assuming you (let alone any of us) knows the answer. I don't think, in my opinion it is reasonable for anyone, including Armenians themselves, to expect the rebuilding of an Ancient Armenian Empire. As you, and some others have correctly pointed out, borders also change with time and wars - this is normal. As for both however, if the act of Genocide got in the way of a nations ability to exist in its natural state, or the act of Genocide influenced fair borders, then an alternative solution must be come to by both parties through compromise and realism. I know there would be many problems with Armenia getting all of its homeland back (I tried to discuss some of my concerns in my thread "Getting Critical: Land Reparations". Lets just say North and South Carolina decided to go to war with each other- North takes most of Souths territory and a peace treaty is signed. North won fair and square (just like any "contest"). However, if North was to win that territory by not playing by the "rules" (ie. the act of Genocide against South Carolinians was uncovered) then the north would surely recieve a penalty and probably forfeit its territorial reward. When Armenian men were conscripted, stripped of their arms, organized into labor battalions in the Ottoman Army, only to dig their own graves (literally), which they would be shot and buried in - it certainly wasn't "playing by the rules" - and certainly wasn't fair. Armenia as a nation was robbed of its intellect and culture (on the night of April 24th and subsequent occasions), and robbed of its strength (by subjecting men and boys to the first rounds of massacre). The nation didn't have a fair chance at defending itself from the beginning. The TR is built upon territories that it gained by cheating. How is that fair?

My solution is:

Making the Armenians Turkish citizens who are willing to and whose origins are from Turkey. Then giving them properties from Turkey. So they can sell them or if they like they can live in Turkey.

Cosmos,
I respect your opinion, and value your willingness to share that opinion with us, to discuss this matter as humans, but I don't agree with you about Armenians being given Turkish citizenship. This is ok, we aren't supposed to agree on everything, or even most things. The important thing that Cosmos has done here, and I hope everyone who visits this thread learns from, is that he tried to constructively create a solution to the problem instead of attacking the problem, or denying the existance of a problem. The good news is that when people like Cosmos do this, whether or not we agree with him/her doesn't matter because a dialogue is opened. We can discuss the matters at hand! This is the important part! This is where progress begins.

[cosmos]

Hovik, sorry for the late reply.

It is a pleasant thing for me to mention about my ancestors. And I am trying to explain my opinions with my insufficent English knowledge as much as I can. Here is the the life of some parts of my mother’s mother and father.

When Crete Island and Peloponnes peninsula were gained by Greeks there was of course resistance by muslims together Ottomans against them. As you can guess those muslims believed that they are from Ottoman origins. However most of them were indigenous. But their religion and reactions against Greeks caused them to be recognized as Turks. Therefore muslims had to leave Crete as soon as possible because of their useless struggle. In the beginning of 20th century or a little time ago, they began to come different places of West Turkey such as Kusadası, Ayvalık. So my Grondfathers of Grandmothers who were some of strugglers left Crete and made their way to Kusadası. Then my Grandmother’s Mother who was born in Crete, came back to the island when she was 18 and took their money that for their properties and returned to Turkey.

As for my mother’s father, he came to the Turkey when he was about 13 in 1920 or1921. He boarded on a Italian ship from Crete which made its way to Port of Izmir while visiting Agypt, Lebanon and Syria. He then and the others learned to speak Turkish. But they spoke to each others in Cretan till they die that has differences from Greek.

As said by 1.5 Million, those people due to their religion, were probably seen as colobrators too, even they weren’t strugglers. So when I said that if Turkey hadn’t been, Muslims who are from the Balkans would have lived or still live there in hard circumstances. For example, in 1980’s, many muslims came to Turkey from Bulgaria because of bad treatment. When hard times come, Turkey is always the single place to go for them. So I think it won’t be seen unreasonable Turkey will be a preventer country for who are still there. To have different religion in a country may create forced life circumstances on all of the World. I just meant that.

[1.5 million]

When Crete Island and Peloponnes peninsula were gained by Greeks there was of course resistance by muslims together Ottomans against them. As you can guess those muslims believed that they are from Ottoman origins. However most of them were indigenous. But their religion and reactions against Greeks caused them to be recognized as Turks.

In fact it was more the norm in the Ottoman Empire and in the regions (such as Crete & the Balkans etc) to be more recognized/distinguished by your religious affiliation as opposed to ethnic. This is just the way it was - mostly because of the overiding role of Islam in the Empire - and it connecting diverse peoples - and because ethnic Christian communities were first seen as Christian (Gavur) and only next as Armenian or Greek or what have you.

Did you all know then when Turkey expelled its Greeks (and Greece responded by likewise expelling its Turks) each side explictly recognized that Greek Muslims and Christian "Turks" would not move - and in fact a great many/majority of such did rather then rejoin with their ethnic kin.

[cosmos]

In fact it was more the norm in the Ottoman Empire and in the regions (such as Crete & the Balkans etc) to be more recognized/distinguished by your religious affiliation as opposed to ethnic. This is just the way it was - mostly because of the overiding role of Islam in the Empire - and it connecting diverse peoples - and because ethnic Christian communities were first seen as Christian (Gavur) and only next as Armenian or Greek or what have you.

Did you all know then when Turkey expelled its Greeks (and Greece responded by likewise expelling its Turks) each side explictly recognized that Greek Muslims and Christian "Turks" would not move - and in fact a great many/majority of such did rather then rejoin with their ethnic kin.

Could you explain more?

[1.5 million]

Could you explain more?

I'm not sure what you want explained...

[Reincarnated Am]

Adonijah

You don't need to go to Armenia and preach about God or Jesus, Armenians can teach you more then you will ever learn from your masters in your lifetime, you want to preach? Go to Turkey and preach, they need to learn more about God ..!!!