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Questions for Turks

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  • #11
    This my photograph. I am so handsome. Ha ha ha ha...

    Comment

    • #12
      Originally posted by phantom
      Hello, I'm new to this forum, but not new to the issue. Am I being naive when I ask you what about the issue of righting a wrong? Almost an entire nation of people was eliminated from their ancestral homelands; all of their wealth unjustly taken and given to others. The modern nation of Turkey was formed in part by the extermination of one of their ethnic minorities. Perhaps your family had nothing to do with it, but there are hundreds of thousands of families in Turkey who directly benefited and were unjustly enriched with the property taken from innocent civilian Armenians. Wouldn't a country with pride, honor and some nobility say, ok our ancestors did this thing and we have wrongly benefited from it, so we should apologize for what they did and give at least some of what was wrongly taken back to the rightful owners. I'm not talking about giving away parts of Turkey, I'm talking about compensating those who can prove that their properties were stolen. Isn't this the right thing to do?
      I do agree with your comments at many points. People suffered, their properties are taken unjustly...

      What I don't agree is this doesn't lead to a conclusion "So there was a genocide". According to international law there must be "intention" for naming a crime as "genocide".

      As far as I known other than some fabricated telegrams and indictments in a court there is no proof that is acceptable by everyone to show the "intention". Today I read that (from a journalist) even Taner Akçam accepts (in the infamous conference) that in terms of international law "genocide" is arguable.

      Any way, either genocide or not the people suffered and lost properties.

      Either you accept it or not this happened for both sides.

      You don't need to name it genocide in order to ask a compensation. This is my opinion. There must be a body sponsored by all parties, and this body must compensate those who suffered from both sides.

      This is what I don't understand. There are people who used to stay in some of the houses once, the houses are there. For some reason the owners are not there anymore. It is easier to convince people that htis thing is not fair other than forcing them to accept an "insulting" crime with weak proofs (just gossips actually). Diaspora Armenians are not wise enough to accept this.

      1- Turkey won't accept anything based on the votes of ignorant people that are making politics particularly if it has a strong argument against it. On the other hand EU parliament is a reference for EU and it's decisions are not binding.

      2- Turkey will continue the negotiations and will publicly state it's arguments on the matter.

      3- Turkish society won't really care what the final decision will be. If it is proven as a fact than they will accept -other than few nationalist- the consequences.

      Comment

      • #13
        ok so I was reading kemals' post... I was very impressed at first.... then I got to the part where he said "According to the international law there must be "intention" for naming a crime a genocide.. and that there is no proof that what happened was a genocide". I was like whatever, and I continued reading... then I got to the part where he said "this happened to both sides"!!!!!!!! That's where I stopped.

        Comment

        • #14
          Originally posted by cosmos
          This my photograph. I am so handsome. Ha ha ha ha...
          hahaha
          Cosmos I like your posts... you can't be a donkey.
          But we do (and had) have donkeys onboard, but you're not one of 'em.

          My 2 cents on your avatar.

          Comment

          • #15
            Cosmos your friends

            School just a donkey ride away
            Attached Files
            "All truth passes through three stages:
            First, it is ridiculed;
            Second, it is violently opposed; and
            Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

            Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

            Comment

            • #16
              Gavur I will complain you to The Society of Preventing Donkeys Right. How can you show my friends like that!!!

              Comment

              • #17
                Originally posted by Tongue
                ok so I was reading kemals' post... I was very impressed at first.... then I got to the part where he said "According to the international law there must be "intention" for naming a crime a genocide.. and that there is no proof that what happened was a genocide". I was like whatever, and I continued reading... then I got to the part where he said "this happened to both sides"!!!!!!!! That's where I stopped.

                Hi Tongue,

                Actually the rest was the most impressive part! I will return this issue in a minute but let's settle one thing.

                Do you accept that there was at least one innocent Turkish family suffered from Armenian Chetes? If yes than we do agree on "both sides". If no then you are saying that hundred of Turkish eyewitnesses are lying. Furthermore you are saying that some Armenian heros are lying as well. If you have an objection I can search for some documents that states that as a policy to atract European interests Armenian Chetes were using terror activities before the deportation.

                Yes Armenians suffered more. This is what I acknoledge. However you have to see that if the Serves Treaty was applied Turkish people would suffer even more. It was teh case in Caucasus. It was the case in Balkans.

                At this point I want to point to the memory loss of the Turkish society. It is not a selective loss. Nobody remembers or cares about the loss in Balkans and Caucasus in Turkey as well. The memory of the Turks starts with 1920. With the national assembly gathering in Ankara and giving birth to Turkish Republic. However it seems that some Armenians are perceiving Turkish people as monsters so they think that we do remeber everything but not accepting it because we are monsters. That's a racist remark and shows the magnitude of the ignorance of the owner of the remark.

                Any way let me return to the most impressive part that you didn't read.

                Last week I stayed in -either greek or armenian owned old house- in central anatolia. There you feel that once the owners were forced to leave that house. At that moment you don't care if the owners had involved to any crime or not. The family is forced out of that house.

                Again at that moment you don't feel if it was a genocide or not. You only think that innocent people are forced.

                That was the point I made. It is much more easier to agree with the majority of the Turkish people that such a thing happened, even Turkish Republic accepts that, and no matter what you name it, it was a mistake. It was not fair. However, Diaspora is stubborn like cosmos's picture. They force things that they can't achieve or have "strong" basis. Try to solve the problem with politics. By convincing third nations parliaments. What type of policy is this? Wait here and 20 years or 30 years with this policy we will continue to write the same thing. Majority of the humans -as well as the Turks- have the sense of justice. Actually the eastern societies have the sense even more. As Turkey and the rest of world is westernizing with an extreme speed 20 years from now people will loose their sense of justice. Personal interest will be the first criteria for everything.

                For Diaspora living in North America it already is. According to many of them, any counter argument should be because of personal interest. However those people amateurs like me and the other contributors of the forum it is not that we will loose something if the "truth" reveals. It is ignorance. Yes ı do accept that I am ignorant as well. I never come to a satisfying explanation that proofs the genocide. I guess if I see any I won't hesitate for a moment. That will be the end of discussion.

                If I were an Armenian, I would try to communicate with the Turkish people. And this means that you shouldn't insult a ne comer at the first post as Gavur did to pirate. (http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...=3667#post3667)

                You need common grounds to start a discussion. If you perceive any counter argument as an insult and start insulting as a reply, this means that you will never have a common ground with those who have counter arguments. Modus ponenes, pure logic. Isn't it?

                Take care and try to read the posts till the end. This is why we are sharing thoughts here right?

                Comment

                • #18
                  Originally posted by kemal
                  I do agree with your comments at many points. People suffered, their properties are taken unjustly...

                  What I don't agree is this doesn't lead to a conclusion "So there was a genocide". According to international law there must be "intention" for naming a crime as "genocide".

                  As far as I known other than some fabricated telegrams and indictments in a court there is no proof that is acceptable by everyone to show the "intention". Today I read that (from a journalist) even Taner Akçam accepts (in the infamous conference) that in terms of international law "genocide" is arguable.

                  Any way, either genocide or not the people suffered and lost properties.

                  Either you accept it or not this happened for both sides.

                  You don't need to name it genocide in order to ask a compensation. This is my opinion. There must be a body sponsored by all parties, and this body must compensate those who suffered from both sides.

                  This is what I don't understand. There are people who used to stay in some of the houses once, the houses are there. For some reason the owners are not there anymore. It is easier to convince people that htis thing is not fair other than forcing them to accept an "insulting" crime with weak proofs (just gossips actually). Diaspora Armenians are not wise enough to accept this.

                  1- Turkey won't accept anything based on the votes of ignorant people that are making politics particularly if it has a strong argument against it. On the other hand EU parliament is a reference for EU and it's decisions are not binding.

                  2- Turkey will continue the negotiations and will publicly state it's arguments on the matter.

                  3- Turkish society won't really care what the final decision will be. If it is proven as a fact than they will accept -other than few nationalist- the consequences.
                  Kemal, thank you for your post. I think I understand where you are coming from. I agree with your message that everyone suffered at that time in different ways and different degrees. Obviously, we disagree on the character of the suffering experienced by the Armenian side insofar as I have chosen to believe the vast majority of genocide and holocaust scholars who have studied the matter and have concluded that it was a Genocide. Like you, I don't have time to comb through the Turkish archives, and only until recently would I have been allowed anyway. I don't have time to do exhaustive research, so I leave it to the experts to help me find the truth. Just like I don't have time to go to medical school just to figure out if the pain in my stomach is caused by the sujuklu yumurta I ate last night, and therefore I leave it to the doctors to help me find the truth. So my question to you is, why do you ignore the 150 cancer specialists who are telling you that the large growth on your arse is cancer and following the advice of your butcher who is telling you that you'll be fine just as soon as you take a big kaka?

                  Also, I agree with you that we should not have to conclude there was a Genocide in order to have our grandparents' stolen property returned to us, whether we are Turkish, Kurdish or Armenian. But can we be realistic for a second. Can you imagine an Armenian going into a Turkish court of law and filing a complaint against the Turkish government for unjustly seizing my grandfather's property during WWI? I wonder if I would be jailed simply for filing the complaint. Anyway, insofar as Turkey has not shown the nobility to own up to its history, at least not the dark pages of its history, we "ignorant Armenians" in the diaspora have had little choice but to seek acknowledgment universally. This we do not only to honor the memory of our largely innocent ancestors who were ruthlessly killed, but also as a warning to those who might be contemplating a similar violence in the future. Just as I understood you, I hope you can understand me.

                  Comment

                  • #19
                    Like I said you're going no where like this

                    This is that donkey I was talking about

                    Comment

                    • #20
                      Re, where did you find that picture, it's great!

                      Comment

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