Questions for Turks

[Reincarnated Am]

Re, where did you find that picture, it's great!

I Knew you guys are going to like it

[Reincarnated Am]

This one too

Yet another arsenal in Turkish horse race

[elendil]

Don't you think it's the opposite? It seems to me, and many others that NOT saying Turkey committed such a crime will forever burden Turkey! For example, Turkey's refusal to admit the genocide has now burdened it for it's ENTIRE existence. Given the exponential force by which the issue is being pressed by the diaspora in the world arena, it seems like having not recognized the Genocide the Turkish Government has consigned itself to an eternal burden. Right?

Furthermore, by facing history and reconciling with her neighbors, it seems to me (let me know if anyone disagrees) that Turkey would lift a nearly century-long burden, and would then have the ability to turn a new page in its history, one FREE from burden.

Well, I really dont think it is the opposite.
Let's see what we can get if we recognize genocide claims
1-) End of the enmity between Armenian nation and Turkish nation.
2-)Border opened, trade routes allowed, economic movement in eastern Turkey.
What we lose?
1-) Compensation in terms of money to the diaspora Armenians.
2-) Risk of land compensation.
3-) The burden of being the first official genocide-commiter throughout the world. The image of blood-thirsty Turkish nation spreading even wider.
4-) A new Trump card for EU,USA to force Turkish politics. Since these nations,organizations hold the key to human rights court, this time we will be threatened by the land compensation threat, every year Armenians will make an attempt, every year we will give them smt for them to refuse.

What happens if we dont not recognize?
Gain:
1-)Though being accused of the crime, no official way of law to go with the court since Turkey is innocent until proven else.
2-) Land is safe, money is safe.
3-)No burden like germany. Not bowing your head in shame when a foreigner mentions the term Armenian..
Loss:
1-)Enmity of Armenians.
2-)Border remains closed. Trade routes are also closed.
3-) Some people will hate us for "denial" concept especially in the EU. But hey!
They already do...
4-) Every year Armenians will force the genocide claims to various parliamets, we will just wait. We are used to this. Perhaps more will agree. Who knows?
The truth is, it does not bind Turkey in terms of law...

Now comparing these conditions, recognizing genocide claims just does not add up even if I agree that it was genocide. By the way Hovik, thanks for your civilized reply I appreciate it.
Let me make it clear, I do not write these to hurt, cause pain among Armenian people. Still these are my thoughts exactly.If I say else I would be lying...

[Hovik]

Hello again elendil,
Again glad to hear your thoughts, and also appreciate the civil and mature conversation. I was hoping I could discuss the issue with you further as I still have more questions for you. Let me know if you don't wish to discuss in more detail, I'll respect that.

Well, I really dont think it is the opposite.
Let's see what we can get if we recognize genocide claims
1-) End of the enmity between Armenian nation and Turkish nation.
2-)Border opened, trade routes allowed, economic movement in eastern Turkey.

Do you belive this is all you will gain? Not that the issues you presented were miniscule... But what about pride? The Turkish nation would give itself the opportunity to stop dragging the chains of shame and humiliation. Also, the issue of 'doing the right thing', or 'doing the humane thing' is missing from what you will gain. Don't you agree? I think there is definately a moral aspect, that if acted upon, would be very fufilling for the Turkish nation. World opinion of Turkey could change rapidly for the better.
What do you think? Aren't there other aspects in which Turkey could benefit?

What we lose?
1-) Compensation in terms of money to the diaspora Armenians.

Perhaps, but again, shouldn't this be looked at from the moral perspective? It would be the right thing to do, to compensate those who suffered. Furthermore, think about it... Germany has one of the worlds strongest economies right? Germany has accepted it's responsibility in the tragedy right? But how many people are compensated in Germany's case? Were talking about 6 million people! Furthermore many are still alive from the Holocaust to make claims, and those who are not have children who are at least somewhat prepared with stories and documents to make claims. Now compare that with the Armenian case. You have a handful of survivors left alive out of lets say the diaspora's 1.5million figure... On top of that most of the documents were never found, lost, or never passed down. Given these to substantial factors alone, you'd never get even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the claims Germany does! Am I correct in assuming that? I don't think recognition of the Genocide would even make a .05% difference in Turkeys economy. And yet Turkey would get rave reviews from the civilized world just like Germany, for being an upstanding, responsibility taking, moral nation - and yet at a tiny relative cost.

2-) Risk of land compensation.

I don't think Turkey has much to worry about in this department. Armenians only talk about such issues, it doesn't seem any major organization has made any attempt to seek legal remedies to this. Most of the national leaders have agreed that recognition is what is important to us.

3-) The burden of being the first official genocide-commiter throughout the world. The image of blood-thirsty Turkish nation spreading even wider.

I believe this is the burden you carry around with you now, not after recognition. Germany has accepted it's past and moved on. But Turkey, given the fact that it was the Ottoman State Government and not this, that committed the crime has a unique opportunity to free itself of direct blame. So when you say Turkey will bear the "burden of being the first official genocide-commiter throughout the world" remember that Turkey DID NOT commit the first official genocide throught the world - Ottomans did. That is an important point. Don't you think Turkey need not feel the shame that they do for another Governments actions?

4-) A new Trump card for EU,USA to force Turkish politics. Since these nations,organizations hold the key to human rights court, this time we will be threatened by the land compensation threat, every year Armenians will make an attempt, every year we will give them smt for them to refuse.

I don't agree with you elendil, I think the one and only and enormous trump card the USA and EU holds is the one they hold now. It has been documented and written in book after book about the Genocide that Administration after US Administration used the Armenian Genocide resolution against Turkey anytime it needs something. What do you think? Will the US be able to use the Armenian Genocide as blackmail against Turkey if Turkey has since recognized it and embraced it's past for what it is? I surely don't think that assumption holds any water whatsoever. It's like the US trying to use Cambodia's Genocide against it, or Germany's Genocide against it - it simply wouldn't work - the US would be the laughing stock of the entire world (if it isn't already ) I don't think Turkey has anything to worry about. The Turkish Republic would in one swift action (recogniton) remove the bullets from every political gun in the western world - a very strategic and genious step on Turkey's part.

What happens if we dont not recognize?
Gain:
1-)Though being accused of the crime, no official way of law to go with the court since Turkey is innocent until proven else.
2-) Land is safe, money is safe.
3-)No burden like germany. Not bowing your head in shame when a foreigner mentions the term Armenian..

Having already discussed the minute implications of your second point, I don't think its even a relevant issue.

But the third point is important to address. As I have already said, Germany has only a financial burden (which as I logically estimated would be worlds more than the small amount Turkey would ever face) and land probably wouldn't be any more an issue for Turkey than it was for Germany. But your second sentence is important. Do you really think that recognition would equate to Turks having to bow their heads in shame? I am very sorry to hear that. If anything I believe acting as a denialist nation is the only thing that Turkish people have to be ashamed of. And when the genocide is recognized, I think Armenians and Turks will have the opportunity to embrace eachother and not only act as neighbors but as friends, forming perhaps one of the strongest alliances in the world. After recognition the Turk will feel like the world has been lifted off his shoulders, and feel free to walk with his head high with the pride that his nation has been fair and just to his fellow man. That, my friend, will be the ultimate feeling of pride. Turkey will emerge as a nation reborn!

Loss:
1-)Enmity of Armenians.
2-)Border remains closed. Trade routes are also closed.
3-) Some people will hate us for "denial" concept especially in the EU. But hey!
They already do...
4-) Every year Armenians will force the genocide claims to various parliamets, we will just wait. We are used to this. Perhaps more will agree. Who knows?
The truth is, it does not bind Turkey in terms of law...

In my opinion, none of the things you listed as loss come any where even near being worthy of comparison to what the Turkish nation will gain. They are not even worth talking about, do you actually think they are the best for Turkey? Do you actually think they are the best for you?

Now comparing these conditions, recognizing genocide claims just does not add up even if I agree that it was genocide.

I would ask you to reconsider given the points I have tried to make in this post. Compare again and see if I was not correct in anything I said!

By the way Hovik, thanks for your civilized reply I appreciate it.

It is my pleasure to have this conversation with you Elendil. I know our nations can have a future together, I know people like you and I can be great friends again one day. We just have to talk, listen, and reconcile. We'll get there...

Let me make it clear, I do not write these to hurt, cause pain among Armenian people. Still these are my thoughts exactly.If I say else I would be lying...

I understand you. I respect your thoughts and feelings, and don't take them the wrong way. Sincerity is what is most important, and I know you are being so...

Regards,
Hovik

[phantom]

I commend both of you for having such a thoughtful, rational, and civilized conversation. You've accomplished a great deal just by doing that alone. Bravo!

[kemal]

So my question to you is, why do you ignore the 150 cancer specialists who are telling you that the large growth on your arse is cancer and following the advice of your butcher who is telling you that you'll be fine just as soon as you take a big kaka?

Also, I agree with you that we should not have to conclude there was a Genocide in order to have our grandparents' stolen property returned to us, whether we are Turkish, Kurdish or Armenian. But can we be realistic for a second. Can you imagine an Armenian going into a Turkish court of law and filing a complaint against the Turkish government for unjustly seizing my grandfather's property during WWI? I wonder if I would be jailed simply for filing the complaint. Anyway, insofar as Turkey has not shown the nobility to own up to its history, at least not the dark pages of its history, we "ignorant Armenians" in the diaspora have had little choice but to seek acknowledgment universally. This we do not only to honor the memory of our largely innocent ancestors who were ruthlessly killed, but also as a warning to those who might be contemplating a similar violence in the future. Just as I understood you, I hope you can understand me.

Hi Phantom,

Actually I replied the first half in another post. (http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...=3755#post3755)

It's not that simple there are specialists who claims another thing as well. If it was up to my butcher's words, I wouldn't bother to come here. I would have the same answer of yours. I came here with question marks. I still have question marks. But as much as I learn about the subject in terms of international law it seems that there are not much evidence that you can proove that what happened in 1915 was a genocide. At least I am not convinced, yet.

Any way, but what happened was for sure unfair. At least I am convinced. And that's what I was suggesting. If you don't start pushing too much you can convince millions of Turkish people who has heart and mind like the rest of mankind.

For the second half, I don't want to be rude again but, yes, many of the Armenians are ignorant about Turkey. Once someone asked me if Taner Akçam's books were allowed in Turkey? Apparently he thought he was banned.

Once I made a comment, if you just pick and read single news from North America, you can believe that there is terror, unlawfulness, bribery, selfishness, but nothing more in USA. Can you believe that one of the most decent statemans you guys ever had -Colin Powers- lyed to the eyes of United Nations.

Any way Turkey has laws as well. There is a hierarchy of courts. If one court objects your claims you can apply to the higher courts. After you reach to the highest level you can apply to European Court of Justice. Turkey accepts that international law has higher degree than its main law. That's in the main law of Turkey. That's not something you have in USA. Turkey acknowledges the international courts rulings and abides them. I guess this was something that European countries should have in their main law. Any way, don't read the western media. I lived abroad for long enough to see that anything uninteresting would't be published about Turkey. That's not news. There are stereotypes but never forget that EU recognizes Turkey as a free democratic nation otherwise we wouldn't be at this stage of negotiations, right?

To be honest, if I have to refer to another post, ( http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...=2245#post2245 ) apparently there is a law dated to the early days of the republic which might be a major problem in your claims. But nobody will be sure before someone takes an action.

I also offer the samething for the "Genocide" claims. There must be an international body to settle such issues. I wonder why neither parties apply for it?

Bye.

[phantom]

Hi Phantom,

Actually I replied the first half in another post. (http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...=3755#post3755)

It's not that simple there are specialists who claims another thing as well. If it was up to my butcher's words, I wouldn't bother to come here. I would have the same answer of yours. I came here with question marks. I still have question marks. But as much as I learn about the subject in terms of international law it seems that there are not much evidence that you can proove that what happened in 1915 was a genocide. At least I am not convinced, yet.

Any way, but what happened was for sure unfair. At least I am convinced. And that's what I was suggesting. If you don't start pushing too much you can convince millions of Turkish people who has heart and mind like the rest of mankind.

For the second half, I don't want to be rude again but, yes, many of the Armenians are ignorant about Turkey. Once someone asked me if Taner Akçam's books were allowed in Turkey? Apparently he thought he was banned.

Once I made a comment, if you just pick and read single news from North America, you can believe that there is terror, unlawfulness, bribery, selfishness, but nothing more in USA. Can you believe that one of the most decent statemans you guys ever had -Colin Powers- lyed to the eyes of United Nations.

Any way Turkey has laws as well. There is a hierarchy of courts. If one court objects your claims you can apply to the higher courts. After you reach to the highest level you can apply to European Court of Justice. Turkey accepts that international law has higher degree than its main law. That's in the main law of Turkey. That's not something you have in USA. Turkey acknowledges the international courts rulings and abides them. I guess this was something that European countries should have in their main law. Any way, don't read the western media. I lived abroad for long enough to see that anything uninteresting would't be published about Turkey. That's not news. There are stereotypes but never forget that EU recognizes Turkey as a free democratic nation otherwise we wouldn't be at this stage of negotiations, right?

To be honest, if I have to refer to another post, ( http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...=2245#post2245 ) apparently there is a law dated to the early days of the republic which might be a major problem in your claims. But nobody will be sure before someone takes an action.

I also offer the samething for the "Genocide" claims. There must be an international body to settle such issues. I wonder why neither parties apply for it?

Bye.

Kemal, I think that you are searching for a letter or a video tape or something in which Talaat, Enver or Djemal gives order to exterminate all the Armenians and signs their name to it. Is it your opinion that without such a document or vide tape, it is impossible to prove that what happened was a Genocide?

As to your claim that there are many specialists who take the other position, I answered it in another post here:
http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...=3794#post3794.

[cosmos]

Mr. Erdoğan in the way of EU

[ScythianVizier]

After reading about the recent events in Europe on the eve of the Oct. 3 start of Turkey's accession talks, primarily the adopting of a bill stating that Turkey must recognize the Armenian Genocide to become a member of the EU, I ask the following.

1. Do you think the bill will prompt Turkey will recognize the Genocide and join EU?

2. Do you think the bill will prompt Turkey to back off its desire to join EU if recognition of the Armenian Genocide is a precondition?

2. Assuming an affirmative answer to question 1, do you think that would that change they way you view the situation? If so, how?

3. What sort of impact could such a decision have on Turkish society?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts...

1. Personally, I do not think that Turkey would accept any sort of "Armenian Genocide" to be a member of the EU. However, I believe that Armenia and Turkey might come to some terms of compromise and then they might issue a mutually accepted statement (issued by Turkey) expressing sorrow for "the Armenian Tragedy" occurred during the WWI. Moreover, the EU membership is a complicated issue in Turkey (and depends upon various factors, and the"Armenian Issue" is one of them) though I think it might be possible for Turkey to be a member of the EU in the long term (if the EU would be there to stay), which might also help Armenia and Georgia (and the other Caucasus countries) to establish direct ties and relations with the EU.

2a. First of all, if Turkey would acknowledge any sort of "Genocide", then this shouldnt be as a consequence of preconditions enforced by the EU, but rather should be as a result of the consensus achieved by the Turkish people. Therefore, I dont think that such precondition would necessarly cause Turkey to back off since "admitting genocide" appears to be an ethical issue rather than some economic criteria or some political frame that needs to be established before being a member of the EU. In conclusion, I believe that no government in Turkey would accept such precondition without receiving the full support of the Turkish people.

2b. The best answer to question number 1 depends upon one's interpretation of history as well as his/her political point of views. In that regard, I dont believe that "a written statement admitting the Armenian genocide" would suddenly help to abolish the problems existing between the Armenian and the Turkish nations. Whether some like it or not, those two lived in the same environment for centuries, and in a sense, they are too alike (if one excludes the religious aspects). So, the Armenians and the Turks might need to do more than relying their future on the tragedies of the past. Respectfully, both nations should learn to compromise in order to reconstruct their relationships.

3. Admitting "genocide" might result in various problems that need to be addressed in Turkey, and I think predicting the consequences (as well as the impact of such acknowledgement) would be far beyond the scope of my post.

[Gavur]

3. Admitting "genocide" might result in various problems that need to be addressed in Turkey, and I think predicting the consequences (as well as the impact of such acknowledgement) would be far beyond the scope of my post.

Sounds like you dont think they'r man enough.Brave Turks cant utter a few words?