About Turkey And Ottoman Empire

[Hovik]

But can you show me really serious historical and official documents?I am really curious about it.I am not talking about Morthenghau's letters or that kind of things.If you have this kind of serious and valuable documents and evidences,let me to see them.

pirate, why don't you come to US and visit Library of Congress and National Archives. A good friend of mine Levon Avdoyan, is in charge of this branch of Library of Congress. He will be happy to direct you to the more than 4000 official US documents related to the Genocide... it's all waiting for you...

[Hovik]

Hey gavur;
I recommend you to research truths.Yes every Armenian family lost their a couple members.Do you know how they died? They died cause of epidemic disease.They died cause of Russian army's gun shots. And Armenian gangs attacked on their own people while this emigration.

Really? Sure about that?
Your statement proves that you have ignored the thousands of eyewitness and survivor accounts. But they are just all liars anyway right? Well, how about my grandma’s brother Garabed, he had to hide when the killing squads came to Zara, Sepastia in the chimney of a friendly Turkish home. When caught his hands were chopped off by the Turkish Gandarmes. He was a 7 year old child, an angel, but that couldn’t save him from bleeding to death.
And his father Oskahan couldn’t be saved from the bullet between the eyes he received for not telling where his son was hiding.
What about my Grandpa’s sister Elizabeth and her husband who were butchered in their sleep by Turks? Or their 20-something son who had just begun a career as a college teacher in Kharbert (Elizag). He was considered an intellectual – and as most of us know the fate of intellectuals was a miserable one – his head was chopped off by Turks who came into his classroom mid-lesson and murdered him.
So, what do you have to say for yourself Mr. EPIDEMIC DISEASE?
{CHOKE}

[Tongue]

I want to say that I am really curious about Armenian Goverment's official documents belong to 1900-1920 about this issue.

There are hundreds of Ottoman documents in the US and British archieves...

[Tongue]

We open archieves and nobody comes to visit. Why not?

Why not? Take a look

[kemal]

... I asked you to list the NON-TURKISH articles, books, and Internet websites you have read, and all you listed was an article from Justic McCarthy and a Turkish website. I'm sure you know that Justin McCarthy is literally considered a joke in the academic community, because he does not use the scientific method. He is paid by the Turkish government to publish their conclusions. So he does not start from an objective standpoint and search for a conclusion. He starts from a conclusion and works backwards.

...The scientists have spoken, and they have almost unanimously concluded this was Genocide. So I guess I'm still confused as to why you think you know better than these experts, and why you think we should all believe you and the Turkish government over, for example, the International Assocation of Genocide Scholars. http://www.isg-iags.org/

Hi Phantom,

Not unanimously accpeted. Have you seen the "THE STANCE TAKEN BY SCHOLARS TO ALLEGATIONS OF GENOCIDE" which is written by "...These are the scientists, who knew that the Ottoman archives were open to the researchers since 1925 and who themselves reached the documents. Therefore, only those who are as knowledgeable on this issue as they can comment on or can object to their views. For this reason, the report submitted by 69 American scientists to the members of the Assembly of Representatives in relation with the issue has great importance...."

and signed by http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...&page=32&pp=10 (Check Mustafa Mert's post dated 06-16-2005, 01:57 PM – Mustafa Mert)

Or just a recent paper by Guenter Leey ( http://www.meforum.org/article/748) which questions Dadrian's papers and claims that they are based on indictments but not proofs. ( http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...9&page=5&pp=10) - BTW he is not one of the signatories...

These people are not butchers. They are scientists as well. I don't care if they are payyed by TR or not. All I care do they have a valid point? I do agree about the scientific methodology. That is to say coming from a conclusion is not scientific. You can always find something that you can support your claims. However apparently that's what Dadrian is doing in his papers as well. He already has an answer. Now he digs to find supports. If he can't find a proof he creates one. That's what happened with Andonians telegrams as well, right?

There are many things that Turkish people must learn about history. But there are many things that you guys must learn as well. Don't do what you are critisizing. Don't try to find supports for something that you believe. From my brief stay I have seen that it is possible to find a support for any claim if you dig enough. There are points on the ground. Thousands of them. Depending on the hand who uses the pensil to connect those points the picture can be a tree or a penguen.

Good luck.

[Gavur]

Don't let the door hit you where the dog bit you,Hope to see you in Baku!

[Hovik]

I try to show you evidence and you also try to show evidence too.But you showed me evidences which was written by foreign resorces.For example American resorces,French resorces etc.These were all invader countries who was trying to acquire the Ottoman land.Because noone of them was there to observe the events.So they prepared this documents to compress Ottoman.

When reading this first quote, I couldn't stop laughing for about five minutes. I told my wife, and she couldn't stop laughing for five minutes more.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Now, since the foriegn eyewitnesses are a threat to your thesis you have decided to try to discredit them by saying every foriegner in the Ottoman Empire at the time of the Armenian Genocide was only there because they and their respective governments were trying to steal Ottoman (or as you call it "TURKISH") land? That is the most absurd thing I have heard yet!

Were Germans (your WW1 allies) trying to steal Ottoman Land?

1. Yes? Then why would they have been your allies? That doesn't make any sense does it...
2. No? Then perhaps you should consult the life story of Armin Wegner the German Army medic who took pictures that helped prove the horror that was taking place (which by the way MR. EPIDEMIC was brutal disgusting animalistic murder). Armin Wegner testifies that what took place was Genocide.

If your getting fed your drive to try to blame eyewitnesses by your government or two-bit 'so-called' intellects like Justin McCarthy, you better start trying to think independently. And if you are just creating this stuff yourself, uninfluenced by outside sources, you should really consider getting some psychological help.

Before I close, I would like everyone to scroll up a few posts to the last one I made, and notice how I answered Pirates original post that the Armenian deaths at the time of the Genocide were all "Epidemic" related - by showing Pirate my own family story - where instead of epidemic, chopping of limbs of young children and cutting the heads of college professors is what claimed our lives. Please, just take note that Pirate chose to not address that point at all. Was it fear of the truth? perhaps... I guess we'll never know. Why? Because like what frequently happens, when real evidence is presented, the denialist coincidentally decides to permanently leave the forum right around then... funny how that happens. Get used to it, it happens frequently around here - just realize that it is usually an indication that you were correct and your opponent realised how incorrect they were, but were to cowardly to address it.

Hovik

[Gavur]

Lmao

[Gavur]

By the way,i think he was an Azeri .I could tell from their accent,lol

[phantom]

That is really strange that you can say Armenian Community was against that event! I guess you were still young on those years,or maybe not exist. I saw a proaud on Armenian Community on those years. Actually, Eurupe was also so silent against those events. Like a silent confirmation. I am sorry but, I cant agree Armenian people didnt support ASALA, just didnt want to show support so obviously. Because ASALA was finally was full of murderers.

Today our grandfathers are being accused by killing million of Armenian. In our history, we dont have any event like that. Also we have many official proffs,that shows Ottoman Empire didnt have any intension to do a planed genocide. We had laws about it, to keep Armenians right,comfort. And one more thing to say!

In 1918 we lost the war, we were under control of English-French-Italian Armies. Like in the situation of Germany at the end of WW2. All the dirty things Germany did was being open at the end of war. And just since 1914 some English and French politians already started to speak louder about Genocide. And politics also wanted to start a court on that issue against Turkey, but they couldnt, because all people in the Law, they told that there isnt any clear froof to accuse Ottoman Empire about that subject. So they couldnt start the court,against poor,beaten Ottoman at the end of 1918.

I want to say that I am really curious about Armenian Goverment's official documents belong to 1900-1920 about this issue. Because we cant see any of them. We open archieves and nobody comes to visit. Why not? If you will say those are Turkish documents yes, of course Turkish documents are also one of the Basic documents we look on, and also we need Armenian Documents. They are also so vital to make things clear. But not the books that people wrote with political expectations. Real first hand documents. No court happened in 1918, now after many years, Armenians want us to accept that we are responsible of Armenian Genocide. And without discussing. Like creating an atmosphere that Armenians doesnt need to proff it, and we have to accept. That is not possible I am sorry.

Patriot, thank you for your reply.

First, you mentioned that ASALA had lots of support. If that's the case, then why did they stop their activities so abruptly in the early 80s when they were so successful in their methods? Maybe there was a backlash in the Armenian community that you don't know about, because you're not a member of this community.

You mentioned that there was no proof to accuse the "Ottoman Empire" and so there were no trials. What about the 1919 Military Tribunals in which many of the top CUP officials and military leaders were tried and found guilty? These were trials that occured in Turkey by Turkish courts and judges. Even Talaat, Enver and Djemal were found guilty. Of course, they had escaped Turkey by then, because they knew what they were guilty of.