Turkish View of Themselves

[Turanist]

or even to expect that Uighur cousins might be joining you for dinner or vice versa anytime soon.

they will. China population is continue to age. with 1 child policy. soon there will be 100 million old people to care. then there will be 200 million. then 300 million.

[Kharpert]

So? China's aging population isn't going to run to Turkey for help.

[ScythianVizier]

1.5 Million,

I did not leave though I felt distracted a bit since the main plot of this post turned out involve mistrust and accusations, and counter mistrust, and counter accusations, hidden sarcasm, and so on since the main obstacle between Armenians and the Turks remain to exist as it was.

As I have already expalined my views on the issue, I do not want to repeat them in details. However, I would like to point out that the debate between us was based upon my personal views derived from various resources. Of course, I believe and respect that the Armenians have their points, and the Turks have their owns, conversely, I believe that all of these issues could be discussed and could be re-evaluated thoroughly.

Since you deliberately raise the similarities between "Armenian Genocide" and the Jewish Genocide", I would like to rephrase my points once again:

01. Armenians were well integrated into the Ottoman Culture and life style and contributed the rise of the Ottoman Empire as an important Ottoman Community.
02. The Ottoman Empire was an Islamic Empire though the Ottomans provided autonomy for the Armenians for centuries in various areas including establishing their schools, using their language, conducting trade, buying property, conducting their religious beliefs,and so on.
03. However, the Armenians were also higher taxes as a result of the Ottoman Policy promoting Islam and converting to Islam. They even paid a lot of rewarding money to the Christians who publically declared him/her self as a muslim.
04. There was not any major problem between the Ottoman Turks and the Armenians until general European perception (empowered with so called scientific studies) about backwardness, cruelty and barbarity of the Turks.
05. These poltical motives which included racial and cultural hatred, and dicrimination against the Ottomans had its own impact over the policies against the weakening Empire, particularly after second half of the 18th Century.
06. 19th Century was not even the declining era of the Ottomans, but a dissolving one. So many people died as a consequence of harsh and imperialistic schemes designed for the Ottoman Empire since it was lierally considered as the "Sickman of Europe" who should be killed before infecting the others.
07. In fact, during the 19th Century, the Ottomans did come up with various reforms that were partially accepted and partially rejected by the people of the Ottoman Empire, or halted as a consequence of ongoing wars inflicted upon them.
08. Rise of nationalism and harsh policies of the European states (and Russia) towards the Ottomans resulted in deportation, plunder, and mass slaughters resulted in deportation and forced migration.
09. These policies was established to ensure that these would never pose a problem again. Respectfully, many ethnicites of the Muslim Millet had to leave their homelands 10. These people deported(or forced to leave) included the Turks, Greeks, Bulgars, Albanians, Bosniaks, Crimean Tatars, Roma people, and Circassians like myself.
11. The dissolving era had severe impact over the compartment model of the Ottoman Millet System and consequently, Anatolia started to witness one of the most drastic demographic changes of human history.
12. With the decline of the Ottomans, and with the rise of Balkan nationalism, Balkan Muslims also started to seek new political point of views, and CUP was reformed which was a replicate of the ones founded by the Balkan Christians.
13. By the end of 1829 (Greek Independence), most of the Christian population of the Ottoman Empire was sure of the delayed demise of the empire would be soon, if not later. In fact, the Armenian uprisings, and strong Armenian participation within the Caucasus campaigns of Russia coincides that particular era and later.
14. The Armenian Nationalist developed a similar path of the Balkan Christians and Muslims and formed Dashnak Party.
15. Following the Russo-Turco war of 1878 and the Balkan Wars, the Armenians were also sure of the demise of the Ottomans, and started to seek their own ways like others did in the Balkans.
16. With the rise of CUP, Turkey started to experience changes stemming from rise of nationalistic feelings. This was directly as a result of European assults on the Ottomans that kept on going almost for a century.
17. When the WWI broke out, CUP saw it as an opportunity to boost its strategic position against Russia as the Czarist Russia was considered as the main reason for the Ottoman decline.
18. When the Ottomans declared war against Russia, there were more than 100.000 Armenian soldiers who fought for the Russian army, whilst the were also more than 100.000 Armenians fighting for the Ottoman Army.
19. As the situation got out of control in Caucasus, the CUP decided to set up a policy that caused the lives of millions. The forced-exile (Surgun) of the Ottoman Armenians was in fact a traditional Ottoman policy that were used for several ethnicities which rebelled against the Ottomans throughout the Ottoman Rule.
20. However, the conditions, resources, and political climate of this first big world war was not appropriate for such outdated policies. Respectfully, so many transgressions and crimes committed against the Ottoman Armenians who were not quilty of the western policies applied against the Ottoman Muslims.
21. In a sense, this slaughter represents some genocidal tendencies, and involved crimes against humanity including rape, killing, and plunder. However, I see it as a kind of Eastern Style Vandetta (designated not only against the real oppoenets, but against the relatives or allies of an opponent), which involved a series of crimes that the Ottoman Muslim Millet got involved.
22. However, neither did the Jewish Genocide have any historical background for such global tensions nor did it lack the chronical and historical hatred stemming from the Christian perception of the Jews.
22. On contrary, there was no hatred towards the Armenians like the one that was evident in the case of the Jews. Thus, there was not a single uprising or struggle between the Jews and the Europeans. I refer the name Europeans since the France, Romania, Hungary, and many other European governments, occuppied by NAZIs (or allied with them) participated in these evil actions during an era between 1939-1945.
23. It should be also noted that there Anatolian unrest between 1914-1922 also affected the Greeks, Assyrians, and all members of the Ottoman Muslims.
24. The allied plans that later became evident after 1918 proves that the wars between 1914-1922 was about ending the Ototman Empire, and in that sense, I believe that it was a struggle to survive amongst these ethnic and religious groups, which caused suffering for Armenians in particular since the Armenian survivors were not compensated in the ed like the people of Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania, and Turkey.

[ScythianVizier]

Reposted after some corrections, sorry for inconvenience:

1.5 Million,

I did not leave though I felt distracted a bit since the main plot of this post turned out involve mistrust and accusations, and counter mistrust, and counter accusations, hidden sarcasm, and so on since the main obstacle between Armenians and the Turks remain to exist as it was.

As I have already expalined my views on the issue, I do not want to repeat them in details. However, I would like to point out that the debate between us was based upon my personal views derived from various resources. Of course, I believe and respect that the Armenians have their points, and the Turks have their owns, conversely, I believe that all of these issues could be discussed and could be re-evaluated thoroughly.

Since you deliberately raise the similarities between "Armenian Genocide" and the Jewish Genocide", I would like to rephrase my points once again:

01. Armenians were well integrated into the Ottoman Culture and life style and contributed the rise of the Ottoman Empire as an important Ottoman Community.
02. The Ottoman Empire was an Islamic Empire though the Ottomans provided autonomy for the Armenians for centuries in various areas including establishing their schools, using their language, conducting trade, buying property, conducting their religious beliefs,and so on.
03. However, the Armenians were also higher taxes as a result of the Ottoman Policy promoting Islam and converting to Islam. They even paid a lot of rewarding money to the Christians who publically declared him/her self as a muslim.
04. There was not any major problem between the Ottoman Turks and the Armenians until general European perception (empowered with so called scientific studies) about backwardness, cruelty and barbarity of the Turks, were thouroghly establised in Europe.
05. These poltical motives which included racial and cultural hatred, and dicrimination against the Ottomans had its own impact over the policies against the weakening Empire, particularly after second half of the 18th Century.
06. 19th Century was not even the declining era of the Ottomans, but a dissolving one. So many people died as a consequence of harsh and imperialistic schemes designed for the Ottoman Empire since it was literally considered as the "Sickman of Europe" who should be killed before infecting the others.
07. In fact, during the 19th Century, the Ottomans did come up with various reforms that were partially accepted and partially rejected by the people of the Ottoman Empire, or halted as a consequence of ongoing wars inflicted upon them.
08. Rise of nationalism and harsh policies of the European states (and Russia) towards the Ottomans resulted in deportation, plunder, and mass slaughters of the Ottoman Muslims from the areas conquered.
09. These policies was established to ensure that those people would never pose a demographic problem again. Respectfully, many ethnicites of the Muslim Millet left their homelands in Crimea, Caucasus and Balkans.
10. These people deported (or forced to leave) included the Turks, Greeks, Bulgars, Albanians, Bosniaks, Crimean Tatars, Roma people, and the Circassians like myself.
11. The dissolving era had severe impact over the compartment model of the Ottoman Millet System and consequently, Anatolia started to witness one of the most drastic demographic changes of human history.
12. With the decline of the Ottomans, and with the rise of Balkan nationalism, Balkan Muslims also started to seek new political point of views, and CUP was reformed which was a replicate of the ones founded by the Balkan Christians.
13. By the end of 1829 (the Greek Independence), most of the Christian population of the Ottoman Empire was sure that the delayed demise of the Ottoman empire would be soon, if not later. In fact, the Armenian uprisings, and strong Armenian participation within the Caucasus campaigns of Russia coincided that particular era and the period following the Greek Independence.
14. The Armenian Nationalist developed a similar path of the Balkan Christians and Muslims and formed Dashnak Party.
15. Following the Russo-Turco war of 1878 and the Balkan Wars, the Armenians were also sure of the ultimate demise of the Ottomans, and relatively started to seek their own ways like others did in the Balkans.
16. With the rise of CUP, Turkey started to experience changes stemming from rise of nationalistic feelings. This was directly as a consequence of the European assaults on the Ottomans that kept on going almost for a century.
17. When the WWI broke out, CUP saw it as an opportunity to boost its strategic position against Russia as the Czarist Russia was considered as the main reason for the Ottoman decline.
18. When the Ottomans declared war against Russia, there were more than 100.000 Armenian soldiers who fought for the Russian army, whilst the were also more than 100.000 Armenians (maybe more) fighting for the Ottoman Army.
19. As the situation got out of control in Caucasus, the CUP decided to set up a policy that caused the lives of millions. The forced-exile (Surgun) of the Ottoman Armenians was in fact a traditional Ottoman policy that were used for several ethnicities which rebelled against the Ottomans throughout the Ottoman Rule.
20. However, the conditions, resources, and political climate of this first big world war was not appropriate for such outdated policies. Respectfully, so many transgressions and crimes committed against the Ottoman Armenians who were not quilty of the western policies applied against the Ottoman Muslims.
21. In a sense, this slaughter represents some genocidal tendencies, and involved crimes against humanity including rape, killing, and plunder. However, I still consider it as a kind of Eastern Style Vandetta (designated not only against the real opponents, but against the relatives or allies of an opponent), which involved a series of crimes that some member of the Ottoman Muslim Millet got involved.
22. However, neither did the Jewish Genocide have any historical background for such global tensions nor did it lack the chronical and historical hatred stemming from the Christian perception of the Jews.
22. On contrary, there was no hatred towards the Armenians like the one that was evident in the case of the Jews. Thus, there was not a single uprising or struggle between the Jews and the Europeans. I refer the name Europeans since the France, Romania, Hungary, and many other European governments, occuppied by NAZIs (or allied with them) participated in these evil actions during an era between 1939-1945.
23. It should be also noted that there Anatolian unrest between 1914-1922 also affected the Greeks, Assyrians, and all members of the Ottoman Muslims.
24. The allied plans that later became evident after 1918 proves that the wars between 1914-1922 was about ending the Ottoman Empire.
25. In that sense, I believe that it was a struggle to survive amongst these ethnic and religious groups, which caused suffering for Armenians in particular since the Armenian survivors were not compensated in the end like the people of Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania, and Turkey.

[Turanist]

So? China's aging population isn't going to run to Turkey for help.

what is you stupid. China will have big problem when peoples are dying. it will be chance for independence for the Uigurs.

[Kharpert]

China is evolving into a world superpower that may soon outperform the United States. If you think they're going to let chunks of their own land secede just because a few of their citizens are getting old, you seriously overestimate the power of revolution. China isn't heading towards a crisis, it's getting stronger every day and national unity is a big deal in China.

It's crazy to suggest the Uighurs are willing to die in massive numbers in a civil war just for some artificial independence.

[phantom]

Incidentally, I've heard from various diplomatic sources that Chinese officials are highly cognizant of Armenia's position as the main divider of the Panturanic dream to unit Turkishdom from Istanbul to China, specifically the Uyghurs. They feel it is in their best interest to keep Armenia alive and healthy for at least this specific reason.

[1.5 million]

Sythian - there are a great number of factual errors in your post. I will address these when i have the time (which is not at this particular moment...and as well I may be quite busy and otherwise occupied over the next several days...or longer). However, rest assured - I will address your points. I do not however see that they directly address any issue of similarity (or otherwise) between Armenian and Jewish Genocides. However - let me repeat - there are numerous factual errors and errors of connection and conclusion in your points.

[ScythianVizier]

Incidentally, I've heard from various diplomatic sources that Chinese officials are highly cognizant of Armenia's position as the main divider of the Panturanic dream to unit Turkishdom from Istanbul to China, specifically the Uyghurs. They feel it is in their best interest to keep Armenia alive and healthy for at least this specific reason.

Phantom, if that is the rationale that the Chinese bear in relation to Armenia, then they should also think about building some new "Great Walls" in Atlantic & Pacific Oceans in order to prevent the US/UK/Canada/Australia/New Zealand (Anglo-Saxon) alliance.

[Turanist]

you are very funny phantom. or very stupid.

China, Turkey to Strengthen Tourism Cooperation

2005-11-11 1:04:26 CRIENGLISH.com

China and Turkey have vowed to strengthen tourism cooperation in order to stimulate the increase of visitors to each country, tourism officials from both countries said in Beijing on Thursday.

Measures to be taken include promoting more regular and charter flights, inviting more tourism operators to visit each other's countries and holding annual conferences between the two tourism departments.

Tourism is an important bridge for friendship and development. China and Turkey have had cultural and economic relations for a long time. Modern technology provides an easier way for tourism cooperation, said Shao Qiwei, director of China's National Tourism Administration, at a meeting of the China-Turkish Tourism Joint Committee which concluded here on Thursday.

In order to better serve Chinese tourists, Turkey plans to increase the number of tourist guides and open more Chinese restaurants. Turkey has also launched a tourism information website in the Chinese language, said Atlilla Koc, Turkish minister of culture and tourism, at the meeting.

(Source: Xinhua)