Turkish View of Themselves

[Hovik]

Look its from Christian website, you have to believe it

http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durabl.../12/08/p1s4.htm

Link to US Indian origins

Thank you for posting something. I'll have a look...

[TurQ]

I think Phantom is right.

I remeber ilke 10 years ago or so, when EbulFez Elchibey talked about the Turkish Union from Anatolia to Eastern TUrkistan(Sinjan of China), china have openly supported Armenia. The same goes with Iran. Ebulfez Elchibey said Iraninan Azeris will unite with Azerbijan. These were all empty unneccary words that helped occupier Armenia. These were wrong and still wrong. There is something called *strategy* and *rationale* in foreign politics. And Foreign policy is something important that shouldnt be given at the hands of a drunk poet(Elchibey). HE was a good guy, he struggled for the independence of Azerbeijan. But he had no qualifications to be a statesman. The former Aliyev was a reasonable president, I hope there will be a president at least will have the same qualifications like Aliyev.

Phantom, if that is the rationale that the Chinese bear in relation to Armenia, then they should also think about building some new "Great Walls" in Atlantic & Pacific Oceans in order to prevent the US/UK/Canada/Australia/New Zealand (Anglo-Saxon) alliance.

[ScythianVizier]

I think Phantom is right.

I remeber ilke 10 years ago or so, when EbulFez Elchibey talked about the Turkish Union from Anatolia to Eastern TUrkistan(Sinjan of China), china have openly supported Armenia. The same goes with Iran. Ebulfez Elchibey said Iraninan Azeris will unite with Azerbijan. These were all empty unneccary words that helped occupier Armenia. These were wrong and still wrong. There is something called *strategy* and *rationale* in foreign politics. And Foreign policy is something important that shouldnt be given at the hands of a drunk poet(Elchibey). HE was a good guy, he struggled for the independence of Azerbeijan. But he had no qualifications to be a statesman. The former Aliyev was a reasonable president, I hope there will be a president at least will have the same qualifications like Aliyev.

If you recall, I did not said that Phantom was wrong, but mocked with the "rationale" that ruled the Chinese strategy, which reveals how the Chinese do perceive the Turks.

The impact of the Turks on the Chinese is well documented in their historical cronicles. They encountered the Turks quite a long time ago, and their strategy in relation to the Turks roots centuries back.

In fact, as a possibility, they worry of the forthcoming Anglo-schemes against China, which might also involve the Turks at some point in time. That is only one of their many concerns, so they might support any country against Turkey depending upon how they rate the possiblity of the thread.

Interestingly, this is the rationale of the Chinese. That is why, they might be considering that supporting strong Armenia could be the first step to defence China. In fact, this is how imperialistic countries establish their mindset, just like the way they used to do back in the 19th Century.

[1.5 million]

I will try to at least briefly respond - however a full response to this would require quite a bit of effrot - that I can't manage at the moment

Reposted after some corrections, sorry for inconvenience:

1.5 Million,

I did not leave though I felt distracted a bit since the main plot of this post turned out involve mistrust and accusations, and counter mistrust, and counter accusations, hidden sarcasm, and so on since the main obstacle between Armenians and the Turks remain to exist as it was.

As I have already expalined my views on the issue, I do not want to repeat them in details. However, I would like to point out that the debate between us was based upon my personal views derived from various resources. Of course, I believe and respect that the Armenians have their points, and the Turks have their owns, conversely, I believe that all of these issues could be discussed and could be re-evaluated thoroughly.

Since you deliberately raise the similarities between "Armenian Genocide" and the Jewish Genocide", I would like to rephrase my points once again:

01. Armenians were well integrated into the Ottoman Culture and life style and contributed the rise of the Ottoman Empire as an important Ottoman Community.

True - however as a non-Muslim millyet existed apart and as a seperate entity as well and were always viewd as such...

02. The Ottoman Empire was an Islamic Empire though the Ottomans provided autonomy for the Armenians for centuries in various areas including establishing their schools, using their language, conducting trade, buying property, conducting their religious beliefs,and so on.

OK - comendably so I would agree considering the times - though motives were not entirely alturisitc but practical and farsighted

03. However, the Armenians were also higher taxes as a result of the Ottoman Policy promoting Islam and converting to Islam. They even paid a lot of rewarding money to the Christians who publically declared him/her self as a muslim.

Ok yes Islam was seriously promoted in a variety of ways

04. There was not any major problem between the Ottoman Turks and the Armenians until general European perception (empowered with so called scientific studies) about backwardness, cruelty and barbarity of the Turks, were thouroghly establised in Europe.

Here is where I will disagree. Your pinning the blame of discontent on outside influences is too simplisitc and incorect. Armenians as they became more prosperous and international (sending children to school in West for instance) became exposed to Western ideas of rights and such Locke/Hobbes - American and Frenchrevolution - that sort of thing - and nationalism as well - (but not exclusively). Recognition of (at least occasional) creulty on part of rulling Turks didnot begin during this period - as these themes exist for long time in Armenian literature etc - only the idea that people could actually do something about it - empowerment - that protests aznd petitions and involvement - and the Tazimat is evidence of this etc - so I reject your implications here...

05. These poltical motives which included racial and cultural hatred, and dicrimination against the Ottomans had its own impact over the policies against the weakening Empire, particularly after second half of the 18th Century.

No - utterly reject this - rascim went the other way. Once Armenians were speaking out for themselves and petitioning - to Sultan and when that failed outside - the resentment against them built up from Turkish side - this combined with Turkish identity led to racism against Armenians - not other way around - much evidence in literature/reports of time to support this. This would be like saying that Jews became racist against Germans before WWII prompting a backlash - no

06. 19th Century was not even the declining era of the Ottomans, but a dissolving one. So many people died as a consequence of harsh and imperialistic schemes designed for the Ottoman Empire since it was literally considered as the "Sickman of Europe" who should be killed before infecting the others.

What came first - Europeans calling Ottoman sick or Ottoman decline? And again - you blame outside forces for what were clearly internal problems (initially) - Ottoman system failed for over 100 years before large enough cracks apeared for any to notice...

07. In fact, during the 19th Century, the Ottomans did come up with various reforms that were partially accepted and partially rejected by the people of the Ottoman Empire, or halted as a consequence of ongoing wars inflicted upon them.

Mostly these were imposed from outside. And these reforms were rejected? By whome? You are twisting this 180deg and again placing blame the opposite of where it needs to go. Excuses were made to not implement reforms - not because of real reasons...

08. Rise of nationalism and harsh policies of the European states (and Russia) towards the Ottomans resulted in deportation, plunder, and mass slaughters of the Ottoman Muslims from the areas conquered.

Check who began slaughtering whom when first and why. Again this view discounts prior causation and is incorrect.(I'm speaking to events internal to Ottoman Empire here - which pre-date other)

09. These policies was established to ensure that those people would never pose a demographic problem again. Respectfully, many ethnicites of the Muslim Millet left their homelands in Crimea, Caucasus and Balkans.

More complicated then this simple explanation. Many of the Khans and such were unwilling to submit to Russian rule and fought to the end - much warfare was occuring on both sides. I willnot apologize for Russian Imperilaism however and my sympathies are more with the subjected peoples - but one must understand the dynamics of what was occuring (and how much [or not] we can take from these situations to apply [and how] to Armenians situation..)

10. These people deported (or forced to leave) included the Turks, Greeks, Bulgars, Albanians, Bosniaks, Crimean Tatars, Roma people, and the Circassians like myself.

OK yes...

11. The dissolving era had severe impact over the compartment model of the Ottoman Millet System and consequently, Anatolia started to witness one of the most drastic demographic changes of human history.

Yes there was some impact certainly. But the Ottomans had already been trying to bring dowen millyet system long before this time -I t is documented how they settled people (like nomadic Kurds and Turkmen etc) into Armenain areas since 200+ years beofre this time in ongoing policy to weaken ethnicities...

12. With the decline of the Ottomans, and with the rise of Balkan nationalism, Balkan Muslims also started to seek new political point of views, and CUP was reformed which was a replicate of the ones founded by the Balkan Christians.

Ottoman decline far pre-dated this period. Ottoman always had difficulty to adapt after expansion stopped. CUP was more extreme then any of these others - and more complex.

13. By the end of 1829 (the Greek Independence), most of the Christian population of the Ottoman Empire was sure that the delayed demise of the Ottoman empire would be soon, if not later. In fact, the Armenian uprisings, and strong Armenian participation within the Caucasus campaigns of Russia coincided that particular era and the period following the Greek Independence.

Incorect and overly simplisitic assumptions not born out by facts. Most Armenains couldnot imagine an existance outside of Ottoman Empire - and for obvious (geographic alone) reasons. These views held by minority. Armenians sought reforms - with CUP afitation had diminished - violent agitation almost completely ceased and was supressed by main Armenian political groups. Failure of CUP to implemt promissed reforms and specifically return to Sultan type repression and outright slaughter of Armenians prompted disalusionmnment - still no Armenain "revlot" only sporadic uprisings all specifically against extremely repressive actions by regional and Ottoman Authorities - most of these charges are contrived.

14. The Armenian Nationalist developed a similar path of the Balkan Christians and Muslims and formed Dashnak Party.

The fact that Dashnak & CUP co-oporation alone countmands this claim...

15. Following the Russo-Turco war of 1878 and the Balkan Wars, the Armenians were also sure of the ultimate demise of the Ottomans, and relatively started to seek their own ways like others did in the Balkans.

completely false - this statement is a total unsupportable lie

16. With the rise of CUP, Turkey started to experience changes stemming from rise of nationalistic feelings. This was directly as a consequence of the European assaults on the Ottomans that kept on going almost for a century.

Again you blame outside forces. Without such we just assume CUP would be benefiacial to all eh? Anyway toomuch speculation CUP was what it was because of extreme reation to all going on - just as Nazis were who they were - should we speculate a benevolent NAzi party as well...only if...

17. When the WWI broke out, CUP saw it as an opportunity to boost its strategic position against Russia as the Czarist Russia was considered as the main reason for the Ottoman decline.

Well yes - their dreams of german victory and establishment of Pan-Turan at the expense of Russians was one central factor agreed...

18. When the Ottomans declared war against Russia, there were more than 100.000 Armenian soldiers who fought for the Russian army, whilst the were also more than 100.000 Armenians (maybe more) fighting for the Ottoman Army.

Your point? Actually this bears out what Armenians were saying then - loyatly to nation - versus the charges against them....

19. As the situation got out of control in Caucasus, the CUP decided to set up a policy that caused the lives of millions. The forced-exile (Surgun) of the Ottoman Armenians was in fact a traditional Ottoman policy that were used for several ethnicities which rebelled against the Ottomans throughout the Ottoman Rule.

Policy was enacted much earlier -actually begining in 1913 against Greeks of Agean reagion and the (Special Organization) terror was then set against Armenians of the Caucuses (and in what is nw Iran) begining ealy in 1914 and continuing to the outbreak of war where it was expanded and considerably ramped up - now you were saying? Something about justifying and blaming others I imaigne - I really think you need to read some more on this history...use of "exile" was a cover for true intent - even if to some degree it was central part of plan - intention was destruction - not relocation...this is proven.

20. However, the conditions, resources, and political climate of this first big world war was not appropriate for such outdated policies. Respectfully, so many transgressions and crimes committed against the Ottoman Armenians who were not quilty of the western policies applied against the Ottoman Muslims.

When you start from false assumptions you can go on to conclude just about anything. While this is perhaps better then the standard Turkish -Armenains backstabbed us" it is no more true

21. In a sense, this slaughter represents some genocidal tendencies, and involved crimes against humanity including rape, killing, and plunder. However, I still consider it as a kind of Eastern Style Vandetta (designated not only against the real opponents, but against the relatives or allies of an opponent), which involved a series of crimes that some member of the Ottoman Muslim Millet got involved.

Some who participated certainly saw it this way - but this was because they were manipulated by CUP to see it this way...make sense?

22. However, neither did the Jewish Genocide have any historical background for such global tensions nor did it lack the chronical and historical hatred stemming from the Christian perception of the Jews.

confusing. Either case shows how a revolutionary movement in highly charged/stessful times in conditions of percieved dire circumstance and under cover/protection of war environment where controls/oversite is lifted can lead to conditions where such extreme policies can be concieved and acted upon.

22. On contrary, there was no hatred towards the Armenians like the one that was evident in the case of the Jews. Thus, there was not a single uprising or struggle between the Jews and the Europeans. I refer the name Europeans since the France, Romania, Hungary, and many other European governments, occuppied by NAZIs (or allied with them) participated in these evil actions during an era between 1939-1945.

This is unture - giving that there was an undercurrent of Anti-semitism against Jews that was not the case per se in Ottoman EMpoire against Armenains Ok -but this is largely irrelavant as conditions for hatred - why each group was singles out and vilified are nearly idencle - very paralllel ina great many (but not all ) ways. I will also just say one thing and I willleave you to research and understand some falsities in your statement - Warsaw Ghetto uprising (hint - thin in parallel with "so-called" Van uprising....) - in part - large part...

23. It should be also noted that there Anatolian unrest between 1914-1922 also affected the Greeks, Assyrians, and all members of the Ottoman Muslims.

That CUP Pan-Tukic/Islamic based worldviews differed from Nazis in some respects is just a testament to different time place and circumstance - however the dynamics and processes essentially the same - at nearly all stages

24. The allied plans that later became evident after 1918 proves that the wars between 1914-1922 was about ending the Ottoman Empire.

Still speculation. Let us speculate the sitution of ottomans joined the British/Allies eh? WHat then? You see we can speculate many ways and conclude just about anything. So I reject what you are implying here. If anything such thinking strenghtens the blame on the CUP for the whole mess.

25. In that sense, I believe that it was a struggle to survive amongst these ethnic and religious groups, which caused suffering for Armenians in particular since the Armenian survivors were not compensated in the end like the people of Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania, and Turkey.

CUP certainly made it so - as did the Ottomans before

[phantom]

If you recall, I did not said that Phantom was wrong, but mocked with the "rationale" that ruled the Chinese strategy, which reveals how the Chinese do perceive the Turks.

The impact of the Turks on the Chinese is well documented in their historical cronicles. They encountered the Turks quite a long time ago, and their strategy in relation to the Turks roots centuries back.

In fact, as a possibility, they worry of the forthcoming Anglo-schemes against China, which might also involve the Turks at some point in time. That is only one of their many concerns, so they might support any country against Turkey depending upon how they rate the possiblity of the thread.

Interestingly, this is the rationale of the Chinese. That is why, they might be considering that supporting strong Armenia could be the first step to defence China. In fact, this is how imperialistic countries establish their mindset, just like the way they used to do back in the 19th Century.

Guys, I could be wrong. My information was heresay, but it came from a diplomat who had several close meetings, including personal dinner meetings, with Chinese diplomats and officials. But it makes sense in my mind. And regarding the Anglo invasion, I don't think the threat there is on Chinese land, but on the dominance of Chinese commerce. And against that threat, the Chinese do have various safegaurds, such as tight restrictions on foreign companies doing business in China. But the threat from "Turkics", at least as perceived by China, may be more primitive and directed to their land due to the situation with the Uyghur separatists.

Anyway, I was merely conveying what I heard, and not trying to portray it as a fact. But apparently, some members here (not Synth, Turq, 1.5, Hovik or anyone else not going by the moniker Turanist) are too stupid to figure that out.

[1.5 million]

Yeah - I agree with what you said and some others (Sythian & TurQ) have made accurate/relevant points. I could elaborate on some of them but I have my reasons for not joining in on this particular issue....(let us just say I have some profesional involvement and leave it at that...). I can't necisarioy agree on the characterization of Elchibey as a "nice man" however....I mean Hitler was a painter Elchibey a poet....perhaps we can appreciate these aspects and ignore the rest, but....

[imported_Hellektor]

Turks are always the victims...

...I mean I must, have been dreaming when the Greek Cypriots started killing the Turkish Cypriots, I guess there arent 120,000 Turkish Cypriots in the UK who fled Cyprus because of Greek violence.

You betcha, you were dreaming.
Man, you can't get enough of fabricating history...
First of all, Cyprus is Greek and the Turks are invaders and occupiers.

Second of all, the "Cypriot" Turks fled the economic hardship as a result of Turkish occupation of the island. 35,000 troops and about 100,000 "immigrants" from Turkey have invaded the island to pretend a Turkish presence.

Once again, that Turks are capable of every sort of cruelty is not surprising, the problem are the European Turk-sucking phaggots who pretend nothing's wrong when the aggressor has occupied 37% of an EU country, doesn't recognize it and presses to smash the gates of Europe to fulfill its mission of the destruction of European Civilization.

[Kharpert]

First, it's not your business to say whether Communism should have existed. Second, Armenia had no choice in resisting the U.S.S.R. Do you think they really embraced communism? 1915 was the Armenian Genocide, and then 1918 was the creation of the 1st Armenian Republic, a woefully small and inable government governmening what tiny territory Armenians could carve out for themselves. It was clear they weren't going to survive on their own...it's not as if they had much love for communism.

Don't mention "Nazi" to mean "evil" again. It's lame. It's overdone. Don't do it. That said, Dro was not a Nazi. He was not a supremacist. He had no affiliation with Germans, unlike Turkey, which was flirting with the Nazis during World War II.

Armenia invaded 3 of its 4 neighbours during the first attempt of an Armenian state in a 1,000 years

If you could please rephrase this, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[UKTurk]

Another interesting fact you and all Armenians fail to mention is that there has never even been a road connecting Armenia to Karabakh, but there has been many roads connecting Baku and the rest of Azerbaijan to Karabakh.

Its should be noted that currently Armenia is in the process of creating a road. The money Armenia obtains for this is mainly from the diaspora through fundraising. This is the same diaspora that had the nerve to complain to the US because Azerbaijan closed its ports and trade routes to Armenia when they were at war. This was so Armenia couldn't get anymore of its supplies through Azerbaijan, so they could continue the attack on Azerbaijan.

Yes apparently Azerbaijan stopping Armenian supplies reaching Armenia so Armenia can continue its attack on Azerbaijan is an "illegal blockade" .

Armenia recieved over $1.4 billion of US aid in a decade. Imports into Armenia are less than that figure per year. The largest import in recent times into Armenia has actually been foreign aid! This of course doesn't include the large amount of financial and military aid that Armenia recieves from Russia. Now Armenia is starting to recieve financial aid from the European Union.

[Kharpert]

Ummm...UKTurk, you're about 6 years late. The Goris-Stepanakert highway that connects Armenia to Kharabagh was completed on November 12, 1999.

The highway that connects Northern Kharabagh to Southern Kharabagh was completed in 2004. Right now the project is initiating some repairs on the Goris-Stepanakert highway.

America's embassy in Armenia is responsible for the U.S. A.I.D. project, which, as helpful as it is for Armenia, also serves a very American purpose as well. It's true and a wonderful fact that the Armenian diaspora gives a xxxx to help build their homeland. As for this...

Now Armenia is starting to recieve financial aid from the European Union.

Yeah, okay. I'm sure EU is dropping Euros from the sky by airplane.