Religion Discussion (seperated from Turkish Defense)

[Gavur]

the principium individuationis

Just as the boatman sits in his small boat, trusting his frail craft in a stormy sea that is boundless in every direction, rising and falling with the howling, mountainous waves,
so in the midst of a world full of suffering and misery the individual man calmly sits,
supported by and trusting the principium individuationis, or the way in which the individual knows things as phenomena.



Arthur Schopenhauer, The World as Will and Representation, Volume I, §63, p. 353 [Dover Publications, 1966, E.F.J. Payne translation]

[Gavur]

Hence arises the fact that everything better struggles through only with difficulty, becomes effective, or meets with a hearing,
but the absurd and perverse in the realm of thought,
the dull and tasteless in the sphere of art, and the wicked and fraudulent in the sphere of action,
really assert a supremacy that is disturbed only by brief interruptions.



Arthur Schopenhauer, The World as Will and Representation, Volume I, §59, p. 324 [Dover Publications, 1966, E.F.J. Payne translation]

[Gavur]

God of Christianity vs. Allah of Islam

By Abdullah Al Araby
Jump to: The God of Christianity
The Son The Holy Spirit The "ALLAH" of Islam


Both Christians and Muslims share belief in a sovereign Deity who is one, heavenly, spiritual, the creator of heaven and earth and the judge of all mankind. Christians call Him " God" and Muslims call Him "Allah". One may thus presume that the attributes of God and Allah are the same. A careful examination of the matter, however, will prove that it is not exactly so.

Muslim activists in the West have been using the tactic of claiming that they worship the same god as the Christians in order to gain legitimacy and acceptance. They have been using the name "God" in place of "Allah" in many translations of the Quran.

There is nothing new under the sun! This reminds us of what happened 14 centuries ago. When Mohammed started preaching his new religion in Mecca he was conciliatory and appeasing to Christians. He told them: "We believe in What has been sent down to us and sent down to you, our God is the same as your God." Surah 29:46. Compare this with what happened later, in Medina, after Mohammed gained strength. Allah then tells him to "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day...Nor acknowledge the religion of truth (Islam), (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay Jizya (tribute tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued". Surah 9:29

However, the attributes of "God of Christianity" and "Allah of Islam" are quite different. God of the Bible is loving and personal, Allah, on the other hands, is wrathful and non-personal.

THE GOD OF CHRISTIANITY
Christianity believes in a one triune God, while Islam rejects this concept as blasphemous.

"They do blaspheme who say Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One Alah". Surah 5:73

The reason behind Islam's rejection of the concept of the triune God is a misunderstanding of the real meaning behind it. It seems that Islam's understanding of the Trinity was derived from a Christian heresy which existed in Arabia at the time of Mohammed.

This heresy taught a trinity consisting of God the Father, God the Mother (the Virgin Mary), and God the Son (Jesus). The Quran says:

"And behold! God will say: O Jesus the son of Mary didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah? He (Jesus) will say: Glory to thee, never could I say what I had no right (to say)". Surah 5:116

Christians, in fact, believe in one God who has made Himself manifest in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus declared this doctrine when He instructed His disciples, saying:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".Matthew 28:19 & 20

top

The Father
Islam doesn't know the loving Fatherhood of God. That intimate relationship with God is foreign to Islam and condemned by the Quran.

"(Both) the Jews and the Christians say, 'We are sons of Allah and His beloved'. Say: why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but men of the men He has created". Surah 5:18

On the other hand, the concept of God being our heavenly Father is at the core of the Christian faith. Jesus taught His disciples to pray, saying:

"Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name..." Matthew 6:9

The relationship between Jesus the Son and God the Father is exhibited on the Cross. We see Jesus addressing God as the Father:

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34

"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." Luke 23:46

The New Testament is full of references to God as the Father of all believers.

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God... Behold, now are we the sons of God." 1 John 3: 1 & 2

top

The Son
Islam cannot accept the role of Jesus as the Son of God.

"O People of the book! Commit no excess in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth, Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not 'Trinity': desist! It will be better for you. For Allah is One Allah. Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a son." Surah 4:171

Nor does Islam accept the deity of Jesus

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: who then hath the least power against Allah if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all - everyone that is on earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is in between... For Allah hath power over all things." Surah 5:17

The God of Islam possesses all power over all things, including the power to erase sin if He so desires and when He so desires. This is completely different from the God of Christianity who is just and merciful, and who must work within the plan of salvation, to satisfy both His mercy and justice. The plan cannot be carried out without the sacrifice of Jesus, the Son of God, on the cross, on our behalf, in order to pay the penalty of our transgression.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

The love of God towards sinners is against the spirit of Islam. Islam vehemently rejects the crucifixion of Jesus.

"That they said (in boast), . We killed Christ Jesus, the Son of Mary. ,,,but they killed him not, nor crucified him." Surah 4:157


top

The Holy Spirit
Islam looks upon the Holy Spirit as a created spirit the same as an angel. In many instances the Quran uses the name "Holy Spirit" to mean an angel. In the story of the birth of Jesus, the Quran states that God has sent to Mary "His Spirit" (meaning the Angel Gabriel) to announce to her the news that she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus.

"Then We (God) sent to her Our Angel (in the original: Our spirit), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." Surah 19:17

The Spirit of God (as the Angel Gabriel) was also the one who allegedly carried the message of the Quran to Mohammed.

"Say the Holy Spirit (The Angel Gabriel) has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth." Surah 16:102

Because Muslims do not recognize the Holy Spirit, they cannot accept the Lordship of Jesus.

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
1 Corinthians 12:3

And because Muslims don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, they don't have the assurance of salvation.

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God, and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ." Romans 8:16 & 17


top

THE "ALLAH" OF ISLAM
In theory Allah in the Quran has 99 names or attributes such as: Omniscient, Omnipotent, Sublime, Living, Everlasting, Holy, Light, Creator, Powerful...etc. In reality, however, the Quran paints a picture of Allah that in many ways resembles Mohammed's own personality.

Whatever Mohammed wanted, Allah wanted for him. However Mohammed reacted, Allah reacted for him. Aisha, (one of Mohammed's 13 wives) was quoted as saying to Mohammed scornfully:

"O Allah's Apostle, I do not see but that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." Al-Bukhari Vol 7:48

Here are just a few examples: When Abu Lahab criticized Mohammed, telling him, . Perish you, Mohammed! Did you invite us here for this?. , Allah immediately sends down Surah 111 to condemn both Abu Lahab and his wife.

"Perish the hands of the Father of Flane (Abu Lahab). Burnt soon will he be in fire of blazing flame. His wife shall carry the wood as fuel."

When Al Walid Ibn Almoghira and Omaya Ibn Khalaf mocked Mohammed and boasted of their wealth, Allah sends down Surah 104 rebuking them.

"Woe to every (kind of) scandal-monger and backbiter who pileth up wealth and layeth it by, thinking that wealth would make last forever. He will be sure to be thrown into the fire (of the wrath) of Allah kindled (to a blaze)."

When Mohammed fell in love with Zaynab, wife of his adopted son (Zaid), God approved of divorcing her from Zaid and joined her in marriage to Mohammed: -

"Then, when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her We joined her in marriage to thee, in order that there might be no difficulty to the believers in marriage to wives of their adopted sons." Surah 33:37

When Mohammed's wives demanded higher allowances out of the booty taken from the massacred Banu Qorayza Jewish tribe, God settled it by telling the wives to either be content with their present allowance or face divorce. (See Surah 33:28 & 29)

When Hafsa caught Mohammed, in her bed, making love to his concubine Mariya, Mohammed tried to please angry Hafsa by promising her that he will stay away from Mariya. At this point Allah intervenes in Mohammed's behalf: -

"O Prophet why holdest thou to be forbidden that which God has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful." Surah 66:1

*******

The next time you attend one of those "bridge-building" meetings, where a panel of a Catholic priest, a Protestant minister, a Jewish rabbi and a Muslim sheik, hold hands in solidarity declaring that they all worship the same God, remember these differences!

That bridge they are building is a one way bridge, leading only towards Islam.


top

For information or comments, write to [email protected]

[1.5 million]

The next time you attend one of those "bridge-building" meetings, where a panel of a Catholic priest, a Protestant minister, a Jewish rabbi and a Muslim sheik, hold hands in solidarity declaring that they all worship the same God, remember these differences!

That bridge they are building is a one way bridge, leading only towards Islam.

I fail to see any real difference (in outlook of exclusivicity) between islam and christianity...and certainly I don't find either of their views more likley to be true or personally appealing. In fact the less I see or have to hear about eitrher the better IMO - because what ussually follows is hate filled and threatening....

[TurQ]

Gavur

These are again the repetition of same classic evalengelic propoganda.
I dont even care to answer those simple+childish if not hateful allegations.

These puppets use Arabic or Muslim converts to Christianity to make a *point*(Jews had enough of those people they recently reacted use of Jewish converts as a propoganda). But the reality is they have a inferiority complex against Muslims. It is just an internal propoganda towards their believers not to have sympathy to Muslims. Thats it, because what these guys say can easily be answered by few sentences, but they dont deserve to be answered.


He just says in short "Muslims does not believe in trinity therefore they are infedels, they cant believe in God".

Yes we dont believe in trinity, according to their belief I might end-up going to hell. These are OK, I dont have any objections. But these guys are apperantly are angry because some Christians are for peace and for understanding, these particular group wants them no to be part of "bridge building"groups, or they might end-up in hell like Muslims.


Gavur one question, do you endorse what is written belove?

By Abdullah Al Araby
Jump to: The God of Christianity
The Son The Holy Spirit The "ALLAH" of Islam


Both Christians and Muslims share belief in a sovereign Deity who is one, heavenly, spiritual, the creator of heaven and earth and the judge of all mankind. Christians call Him " God" and Muslims call Him "Allah". One may thus presume that the attributes of God and Allah are the same. A careful examination of the matter, however, will prove that it is not exactly so.

Muslim activists in the West have been using the tactic of claiming that they worship the same god as the Christians in order to gain legitimacy and acceptance. They have been using the name "God" in place of "Allah" in many translations of the Quran.

There is nothing new under the sun! This reminds us of what happened 14 centuries ago. When Mohammed started preaching his new religion in Mecca he was conciliatory and appeasing to Christians. He told them: "We believe in What has been sent down to us and sent down to you, our God is the same as your God." Surah 29:46. Compare this with what happened later, in Medina, after Mohammed gained strength. Allah then tells him to "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day...Nor acknowledge the religion of truth (Islam), (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay Jizya (tribute tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued". Surah 9:29

However, the attributes of "God of Christianity" and "Allah of Islam" are quite different. God of the Bible is loving and personal, Allah, on the other hands, is wrathful and non-personal.

THE GOD OF CHRISTIANITY
Christianity believes in a one triune God, while Islam rejects this concept as blasphemous.

"They do blaspheme who say Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One Alah". Surah 5:73

The reason behind Islam's rejection of the concept of the triune God is a misunderstanding of the real meaning behind it. It seems that Islam's understanding of the Trinity was derived from a Christian heresy which existed in Arabia at the time of Mohammed.

This heresy taught a trinity consisting of God the Father, God the Mother (the Virgin Mary), and God the Son (Jesus). The Quran says:

"And behold! God will say: O Jesus the son of Mary didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah? He (Jesus) will say: Glory to thee, never could I say what I had no right (to say)". Surah 5:116

Christians, in fact, believe in one God who has made Himself manifest in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus declared this doctrine when He instructed His disciples, saying:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".Matthew 28:19 & 20

top

The Father
Islam doesn't know the loving Fatherhood of God. That intimate relationship with God is foreign to Islam and condemned by the Quran.

"(Both) the Jews and the Christians say, 'We are sons of Allah and His beloved'. Say: why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but men of the men He has created". Surah 5:18

On the other hand, the concept of God being our heavenly Father is at the core of the Christian faith. Jesus taught His disciples to pray, saying:

"Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name..." Matthew 6:9

The relationship between Jesus the Son and God the Father is exhibited on the Cross. We see Jesus addressing God as the Father:

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34

"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." Luke 23:46

The New Testament is full of references to God as the Father of all believers.

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God... Behold, now are we the sons of God." 1 John 3: 1 & 2

top

The Son
Islam cannot accept the role of Jesus as the Son of God.

"O People of the book! Commit no excess in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth, Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not 'Trinity': desist! It will be better for you. For Allah is One Allah. Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a son." Surah 4:171

Nor does Islam accept the deity of Jesus

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: who then hath the least power against Allah if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all - everyone that is on earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is in between... For Allah hath power over all things." Surah 5:17

The God of Islam possesses all power over all things, including the power to erase sin if He so desires and when He so desires. This is completely different from the God of Christianity who is just and merciful, and who must work within the plan of salvation, to satisfy both His mercy and justice. The plan cannot be carried out without the sacrifice of Jesus, the Son of God, on the cross, on our behalf, in order to pay the penalty of our transgression.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

The love of God towards sinners is against the spirit of Islam. Islam vehemently rejects the crucifixion of Jesus.

"That they said (in boast), . We killed Christ Jesus, the Son of Mary. ,,,but they killed him not, nor crucified him." Surah 4:157


top

The Holy Spirit
Islam looks upon the Holy Spirit as a created spirit the same as an angel. In many instances the Quran uses the name "Holy Spirit" to mean an angel. In the story of the birth of Jesus, the Quran states that God has sent to Mary "His Spirit" (meaning the Angel Gabriel) to announce to her the news that she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus.

"Then We (God) sent to her Our Angel (in the original: Our spirit), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." Surah 19:17

The Spirit of God (as the Angel Gabriel) was also the one who allegedly carried the message of the Quran to Mohammed.

"Say the Holy Spirit (The Angel Gabriel) has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth." Surah 16:102

Because Muslims do not recognize the Holy Spirit, they cannot accept the Lordship of Jesus.

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
1 Corinthians 12:3

And because Muslims don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, they don't have the assurance of salvation.

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God, and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ." Romans 8:16 & 17


top

THE "ALLAH" OF ISLAM
In theory Allah in the Quran has 99 names or attributes such as: Omniscient, Omnipotent, Sublime, Living, Everlasting, Holy, Light, Creator, Powerful...etc. In reality, however, the Quran paints a picture of Allah that in many ways resembles Mohammed's own personality.

Whatever Mohammed wanted, Allah wanted for him. However Mohammed reacted, Allah reacted for him. Aisha, (one of Mohammed's 13 wives) was quoted as saying to Mohammed scornfully:

"O Allah's Apostle, I do not see but that your Lord hurries in pleasing you." Al-Bukhari Vol 7:48

Here are just a few examples: When Abu Lahab criticized Mohammed, telling him, . Perish you, Mohammed! Did you invite us here for this?. , Allah immediately sends down Surah 111 to condemn both Abu Lahab and his wife.

"Perish the hands of the Father of Flane (Abu Lahab). Burnt soon will he be in fire of blazing flame. His wife shall carry the wood as fuel."

When Al Walid Ibn Almoghira and Omaya Ibn Khalaf mocked Mohammed and boasted of their wealth, Allah sends down Surah 104 rebuking them.

"Woe to every (kind of) scandal-monger and backbiter who pileth up wealth and layeth it by, thinking that wealth would make last forever. He will be sure to be thrown into the fire (of the wrath) of Allah kindled (to a blaze)."

When Mohammed fell in love with Zaynab, wife of his adopted son (Zaid), God approved of divorcing her from Zaid and joined her in marriage to Mohammed: -

"Then, when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her We joined her in marriage to thee, in order that there might be no difficulty to the believers in marriage to wives of their adopted sons." Surah 33:37

When Mohammed's wives demanded higher allowances out of the booty taken from the massacred Banu Qorayza Jewish tribe, God settled it by telling the wives to either be content with their present allowance or face divorce. (See Surah 33:28 & 29)

When Hafsa caught Mohammed, in her bed, making love to his concubine Mariya, Mohammed tried to please angry Hafsa by promising her that he will stay away from Mariya. At this point Allah intervenes in Mohammed's behalf: -

"O Prophet why holdest thou to be forbidden that which God has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful." Surah 66:1

*******

The next time you attend one of those "bridge-building" meetings, where a panel of a Catholic priest, a Protestant minister, a Jewish rabbi and a Muslim sheik, hold hands in solidarity declaring that they all worship the same God, remember these differences!

That bridge they are building is a one way bridge, leading only towards Islam.


top

For information or comments, write to [email protected]

[Gavur]

No, not in whole It goes overboard and hatefull in some instances
But where theres smoke there must be fire right?

Let me ask you a question
Is todays Islam an examplifacation of Muhammeds life
if it is how did God excuse so many sins by him according only to him?

[TurQ]

The fire is set by those guys, smoke comes rom them. They vilify a religon in order to control the minds of their own people. They dont want a sympathy towards Islam. Islam being the fastest growing religon in west(converts etc), despite all these vilifications, they are simply angry, and produce this simple propoganda.

Prophet's life is an example to all Muslims. Definetly today's muslims are far from that. There is a decline in understanding of Prophet Muhammed in last 2-3 centuries.

God will not excuse any sin done by on His name and on His messenger's name. By excuse I mean willingly misinterpret or distort the principles and commit the sin by using the religon etc. These are clearly indicated in Kuran.(Allah'in haram kildigi helal, helal kildigi Haram kilinmaz)It is the principal.

God is Just, but God is also Merciful. You know there will come the judgement day, and noone will be wronged on that day. It doesnt mean if somebody dies without punishment he/she wont be punished hereafter. This world is pretty much short world. Compared to 60/70 years of life to infinite life. It is impossible for me to say God will excuse those kind of sins.

I would also recommend you to make the distinction of Muslim behaviours and Islam. These are different.

No, not in whole It goes overboard and hatefull in some instances
But where theres smoke there must be fire right?

Let me ask you a question
Is todays Islam an examplifacation of Muhammeds life
if it is how did God excuse so many sins by him according only to him?

[Gavur]

When I look at Turkey in whole it seems like they are more so examplifying Jesus's life then they are Muhammed's do you agree?
And rest of Middle east the opposite.

[TurQ]

I dont think I understand what you sare saying.

Yes Jesus is a holy Prophet for Turks likewise for other Muslims. Examplifing Jesus(pbuh)(in Islamic terms) is equivelent to examplifying Prophet Muhammed(pbup).

When I look at Turkey in whole it seems like they are more so examplifying Jesus's life then they are Muhammed's do you agree?
And rest of Middle east the opposite.

[Gavur]

I guess the question I'm asking is ,can one examplify their life after Muhammed and Jesus and find no contradictions the way they lived?