Religion Discussion (seperated from Turkish Defense)

[Turanist]

you are insulting Islam. why you do that i dont do that one Christianity.

in Islam people will donate the meat from the animals to poor people. it is like charity.

in Christianity all you do is believe that Jesus a man portrayed as white in Christian iconography even though he was most likely middle eastern in appearance. is that racism? its sounds like racism. why not say true colour of Jesus?

if you keep on saying bad things then "And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers." - maybe I know your bible better than you

[Gavur]

Hey you!

This is not Turkey!unlike you
I can criticize what I think needs critisizing

If you want to take it as an insult its up to you!

If the shoe fits
Wear it!

[Turanist]

you are still defending your decisions to attack Islam. In Turkey we respect all the other religions and have no problem with other peoples customs even if it appears strange to us. but you are showing that you have intolerance for other religion.

can you explaining that parts of the bible fake? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=31;
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

see you are making me do things that I do not want to do. please reconsider your anger against Islam. A Wise man once said to me that if you want to blame dont blame religion blame the men that abuse religion for their own ends.

[Gavur]

Thats the problem with you
You take as insult what is an sincere personal observation
Theres a definite difference between discussion and argument which you seem to not know.Is that what they thought you ?If it is its a shame.
A discussion is not made by attacks or threats of perceived threats.

You havent seen me attack yet and I wont because I'm a Christian!

[Kharpert]

Why not say true colour of Jesus?

Jesus' race is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, so its impossible to say what color he was. (Some people doubt Jesus even existed in the first place)

I agree with you, though. It's not accurate to portray Jesus as some blonde-haired blue-eyed white guy.

Still, you should remember that the Old Testament and New Testament are very different.

[Gavur]

Armenian Americans Honor Two Christmases

December 31, 2005 latimes.com : California : San Fernando Valley

BELIEFS
Armenian Americans Honor Two Christmases
Ethnic tradition observes Christ's birth Jan. 6, but church leaders accept the cultural sway of Dec. 25 in the U.S.

By Larry B. Stammer, Times Staff Writer


Jews are well familiar with the so-called "December dilemma" of getting through the Christmas season with its ubiquitous carols, advertising and holiday displays. One answer has been to lift the relatively minor Jewish festival of Hanukkah into competition with the major Christian observance of Christmas.

Armenian Orthodox Christians in the United States face their own December dilemma.



For the overwhelming majority of Christian denominations, the Christmas holiday culminates with celebrations Dec. 24 and 25. But Armenian churches wait until Jan. 6.

The observance of what has come to be called Armenian Christmas underscores an almost 1,700-year divide between the Armenian church and most other churches over when to mark the birth of Jesus.

The two Southern California-based Armenian archbishops this week sought to bridge the differences, honoring their own calendar and traditions while acknowledging that many of their members participate in Dec. 25 festivities.

That stance reflects the reality of a distinct ethnic church ministering in a religiously and culturally diverse region and nation. By contrast, in Armenia, there was little alternative to the Armenian church and its Jan. 6 observance of Christ's birth.

But among Armenians in America, holiday dinners and family reunions are common on Dec. 25 and during New Year's gift exchanges, as well as on Jan. 6. Tables are spread with fish, rice pilaf and spinach; kebabs of beef, lamb and chicken; and kufte, a ground meat wrapped in a fried bulgur wheat shell. Presents are sometimes wrapped in the colors of the Armenian flag: red, blue and orange.

There are an estimated 500,000 to 700,000 Armenians in California.

"I cannot possibly tell my people you are not part of this tradition," said Hovnan Derderian, primate of the Western Diocese of the Armenian Church of North America.

"If Dec. 25 is conveying the good news about Jesus' birth, there is every reason for us to take it as a blessing, because in today's society the more venues we look for to celebrate Christianity in our life, the better for our communities," said Derderian, a native of Beirut.

The other Southern California Armenian prelate agreed that it is fine to celebrate both dates.

"We cannot deny that they do" also mark Dec. 25, said Archbishop Moushegh Mardirossian, prelate of the Western Prelacy of the Armenian Apostolic Church of America, which is administratively separate from Derderian's overlapping Western Diocese. "They bring me gifts too."

"I don't think our churches should emphasize the differences between the dates we are celebrating," Mardirossian said.

In fact, no one knows exactly when Jesus was born. Nor is his birth believed to have been celebrated in the earliest days of the church. According to the Armenian church, all Christian churches used to celebrate Christ's birth on Jan. 6. But in the year 325, the Roman emperor Constantine decreed that it would be celebrated in his empire on Dec. 25.

There are various reasons given for Constantine's edict. But one oft-repeated account suggests that it was a move by the church in Rome to usurp a popular pagan holiday celebrating "the invincible or unconquered sun god" with a Christian observance of the birth of the son of God.

By the end of the 4th century, the Greek-speaking Christian world had also adopted Dec. 25, including what is today's Greek Orthodox Church. But the Armenian church held its ground. Jan. 6 endured as a date to mark both the birth and baptism of Jesus. For some orthodox churches, including the Russian Orthodox Church, Christmas is celebrated Jan. 7.

The Western church adopted Jan. 6 as the Epiphany, the time when Jesus was adored by the wise men. In the Armenian church, however, several themes are woven into the Jan. 6 observance, including Jesus' birth, baptism and the "manifestation," or epiphany, of Jesus as the son of God.

Derderian said Armenian Christians found no reason to change the date to Dec. 25 because in Armenia, pagan observances did not encroach on Jan. 6.

"It had nothing to do with Armenian life," he said. Of course, he said, the Armenian church was not above stamping out pagan vestiges it did find, such as building churches on the foundations of ancient pagan temples.

The two Southern California archbishops are in agreement on their views of Christmas and other liturgical and doctrinal matters. However, they represent two distinct administrative branches of what they insist is one Armenian church.

[TurQ]

I thought you would share Prophet Abraham's tradition.
I know Christians are diverse. I know Christians who respect Prophet Abraham's traditions(including sacrifice). I also do know Jews have same tradition. Eventhough I am not an expert on Christianity, I believe that average believer of Christianity wouldnt say Prophet Abraham's tradition is barbaric.
There are lots of lessons conveyed by this tradition. One of them is to ban human sacrifice. As Prophets being teachers to their people, prophet Abraham taught that human sacrification is banned and God does not allow such a practice(It was a widespread practice those times, but still exists today, satanists are one example). This is just one aspect.

Gavurhave you ever had Bayram with your neighbours when you were in Turkey? When did you leave Turkey?

That's probably where barbarism started

Sacrifes must start within the person.Sacrificing some other creature (killing,cutting)to be closer to God is disgusting and barbaric to me.
I can only see it as a outdated tradition and not as a religous act that can make someone feel righteous about it.

[Reincarnated Am]

Women Rights in Islam

http://www.wa7id-13.com/women_rights_in_islam/

[Reincarnated Am]

Khatami officially invited to join int'l dialogue

Tehran, Jan 3, IRNA
Khatami-Armenians-Dialogue
Iran's former president Mohammad Khatami was officially invited by the Armenian prelacy to represent the Islamic world in the International Council of Dialogue among Religions.

During a meeting with the former president here Monday, Armenian Prelate Archbishop Sebouh Sarkissian conveyed the invitation of the leader of the world's Armenians to Khatami.

Referring to a speech Khatami recently delivered in Lebanon during a gathering of Christian scholars and elite, he said Armenian bishops all over the world thought Khatami was the best choice to represent Islamic scholars in the international dialogue.

Khatami thanked the bishop for his invitation and called for inclusion of a scholar representing Sunni Muslims in the dialogue.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0601035296141721.htm

[Gavur]

The Message Of His Holiness Karekin Ii Supreme Patriarch And Catholicosof All Armeni

PRESS RELEASE
Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, Information Services
Address: Vagharshapat, Republic of Armenia
Contact: Rev. Fr. Ktrij Devejian
Tel: (374 10) 517 163
Fax: (374 10) 517 301
E-Mail: [email protected]
January 5, 2006

THE MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS KAREKIN II SUPREME PATRIARCH AND CATHOLICOS
OF ALL ARMENIANS ON THE OCCASION OF THE FEAST OF THE HOLY NATIVITY
AND THEOPHANY OF JESUS CHRIST

Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, 06 January 2006

In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Amen.

"See what love the Father has given us,
that we should be called children of God"
1 John 3:1

Dearly Beloved Armenians,

Standing once more before the miraculously envisioned sacred mystery of the
Theophany, with great hope and delight we greet you and all our sons and
daughters dispersed throughout the world with the glad tiding of "Christ is
Born and Revealed", and repeat the words of the Apostle, "See what love the
Father has given us, that we should be called children of God."

God's love has united heaven and earth. By the mercy of God, heaven is
opened. High above Bethlehem is the light of the bright star; and with the
lights is the angelic glorification filling the simple manger where the wise
magi and the innocent shepherds bow down before the Son of God having become
a child. It is jubilation, the annunciation of hope, because the savior of
the world is born.

The glad tiding of the Savior's revelation has been preached for two
millennia, teaching in the fullness of time the incarnation of the
Only-Begotten Son of God, coming to the world and living among men, all for
the salvation of mankind. With Him, the nature of man was unified with the
Divine. He Who was before the ages entered into time, to reveal the meaning
of history and the purpose of human life, and so that there be a new man and
new world, loyal and true to the loving, creative and blessing nature of
God. "With Him we recognized God's love for us", God's saving will. How
shall man respond to this grace, other than with fidelity? What does he
have to build, other than a sanctuary for God in his soul?

In the movements of the world, we often find it difficult to hear the voice
of God, it is hard for us to see the true face of our Lord, and often we
rely more on our own human powers - which are always weak without God. We
rely to greater differentiate and appreciate our ability, which is
incomplete without God. Without God, materialism reigns over hearts, hate
triumphs and directs the actions of men. Also today we see peace in peril
in many places, and human rights, freedom and justice remain ignored; in the
pace of the race, man is straying from humanitarianism and the world from
its Creator.

Today, the holy tidings of God's revelation, His presence among men and the
salvation of the world are resonating. We are graced to be the co-heirs of
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Who comes in peace, justice and mercy, so
that love does not abandon this world. He comes with Divine might, to
spread invincible light and life. With God is life and eternity, the good
and all goodness. He is the Lord, and He leads the universe towards
salvation with fatherly guidance. His is the power, which today once again
through the sacred mystery of the Holy Nativity, appears to us in His glory
and might. The time has come. With the grace of the Savior, the universe
is crowned; the life of mankind is renewed with Divine love and holiness.

Therefore, all that man thinks and does - let it be with love, be for God,
and it will be for the peace and vitality of the world, and for the
happiness and joy of mankind, worthy of the Lord's praise and appreciation,
"I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I
was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was
sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me... for as you did
it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did to me." (Matthew
25:35-40)

Dear faithful Armenians, with confidence in the "unobstructed closeness of
the unreachable God", our forefathers lived, created with belief and
conquered with faith. Relying on the Savior, we have found light in the
darkness and rebirth from death. For centuries - strained centuries of
foreign invasions, oppressions and massacres, tortured and dispersed
throughout the entire world - we have stayed unified through our faith under
the arms of our Apostolic Holy Church, directing the gaze of our soul toward
our biblical homeland spread out around Ararat. The independence of
Armenian statehood, the freedom of Artsakh, and the national and spiritual
renaissance in the life of our Diaspora is the embodiment of our faith
today. That which was accomplished through faith shall be defended,
reinforced and developed with faith, with love and unanimity. We have roads
yet to cross. With Christian morality and values, and with love for the
commandments, let us proceed toward the unified, confident and bright future
of our people, toward the new day of our homeland, so that the truth of the
Gospel turn into reality in our lives: "If the dough offered as first
fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the
branches." (Romans 11:16)

Today we offer thanksgiving and glorification to the Incarnate Son of God,
that relying on Divine grace and hope of salvation, the Armenian people
reborn from genocide, having reestablished independent statehood, invest
their contribution to the good relationships and cooperation between states
and peoples, and alongside other nations and cultures, they are participants
in the peaceful and creative life of mankind.

On this grace-renewing day, we offer our prayer asking that our Savior and
Lord keep our people in full prosperity and spiritual illumination;
victoriously crown the right of Artsakh to live free and the just demand for
the recognition and condemnation of the Genocide of the Armenians. We pray
that through His All-caring strength He protect the world and all peoples
from disasters, the evil of poverty, and the calamities and tragedies of war
and terrorism; and bless all efforts of peoples on the paths of loving God,
wherein is the hope for the future and goodness of mankind.

>>From the Bethlehem of the Armenians, God-built Holy Etchmiadzin, we extend
our fraternal greetings of love and best wishes to the graceful incumbents
of the hierarchal sees of our Apostolic Mother Church, His Holiness Aram I,
Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia; His Beatitude Archbishop Torkom
Manoogian, Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem; and His Beatitude Archbishop
Mesrob Mutafian, Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople; and to all oath-bound
clergy of our Church.

With the glad tiding of the Holy Nativity of the Lord, we greet and extend
our Pontifical Blessings to the high-ranking state authorities of the
Armenians, led by the President of the Republic of Armenia Robert
Kocharian. We bless and greet the President of the Republic of Nagorno
Karabagh Arkady Ghukasian and all state officials of Artsakh. We bless the
defenders of our homeland, scientists, educators, and artists, church
councils and all our faithful people.

With the love of Christ we greet leaders and representatives of diplomatic
missions accredited in Armenia.

It is the glad tiding of the Holy Nativity and Theophany. It is the tiding
of renewal and salvation of life. Let us pray together that God's
life-bestowing spirit be with all people, increase faith and hope with
greater abundance, console in sadness, strengthen in difficulties, and keep
us steadfast and faithful in God-loving paths. May peace, brotherhood among
peoples, love among men and goodwill always be blessed and give bountiful
fruits throughout the world.

The Father has graced us with love, so that we may be called children of
God. Let us remain in Divinely granted grace, and the goodness and peace of
God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ be with us, now and always. Amen.

"Christ is Born and Revealed.

Great Tidings to you and us."