Why is it so hard to realize the facts, now I might not understand the politics of the topic, but I just wonder...What makes you not believe that these atrocities never happened?
Announcement
Collapse
Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)
1] What you CAN NOT post.
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene
You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)
The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!
2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.
This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.
3] Keep the focus.
Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.
4] Behave as you would in a public location.
This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.
5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.
Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.
6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.
Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.
7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.
- PLEASE READ -
Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.
8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)
If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene
You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)
The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!
2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.
This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.
3] Keep the focus.
Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.
4] Behave as you would in a public location.
This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.
5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.
Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.
6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.
Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.
7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.
- PLEASE READ -
Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.
8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)
If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less
Question to people of Turkish decent
Collapse
X
-
Allegations Of "So-Called Armenian Genocide"
**** One of the expressions of Cetin Altan that I like the most is "the propaganda of Turks aiming at Turks." On all international issues, we very much like to propagandize to each other - a propaganda which is not based on realities. According to us, the entire world has lined up to be unfair towards Turks and to harm them. Perhaps this is a way of becoming content. But after such propaganda, when we come across the realities of life, we realize that the truth is absolutely not as we thought it was, and the disillusion we feel leads to other dramas.
**** The Cyprus issue is one of these subjects of propaganda. Finally the Greeks have started to join the European Union; even though, they had convinced us that such a thing could not happen. Most Turks believe that Denktas is a genius in politics. If you say, "look, in 29 years the Cypriot Turks stayed far behind the Cypriot Greeks," the majority will not believe it, or if you say, "the politics of Denktas have put both Turkey and the Cypriot Turks in an awkward position for 29 years, causing economic crises, and causing Turkey to be condemned many times by the Security Council of the UN" the majority will not listen to it, they prefer to believe legends which will make them happy.
**** On the issue of the "so-called genocide," too, we like very much to propagandize to ourselves. First of all, we start by indicating that the allegation is about a "so-called" genocide. Recently, I wrote in these columns on the basis of documents that the Council of the Higher Education, YOK, had sent a series of instructions to university rectors and deans and aimed to begin to train educators on this issue. Therefore YOK would determine in advance what and how scientists would think about the "Armenian Deportation," and the latter would work in the light of that . There you are - a scientific study in the Turkish style!
**** That scientific study, carried out at the university level, has apparently descended to the high, secondary, and primary school levels. In the introductory section of the decree dated 14th April 2003, signed by the Education Minister Huseyin Celik, it is explained how this work will be done and it is indicated that it was decided by the Commission of the Instruction and Education that the subjects relating to the Armenian, Pontus Greek and Assyrian allegations should appear in the "social knowledges" course of the 5th and 7th years of the primary education programs, in the 1st and 2nd history courses, and the history of reforms of the Republic of Turkey course, as well as in the Kemalism course of the secondary education programs. Emphasizing that these decisions were put into practice starting from the school year 2002-2003, it is requested that conferences be organized in primary and secondary schools dealing with the theme that "the Armenian allegations are groundless."
**** The instructions sent to schools are not limited to only that: it is requested that schools take advantage of those teachers and expert scholars who have already taken part in congresses organized around this subject. Yes, every effort will be made so that, first, it is recognized that the "so-called Armenian Genocide" is a "so-called" one, then, by means of propaganda, those denials will be taught to children and youth and will be engraved in their minds. It is written in the editorial of the weekly "Agos" that the same is requested from Armenian schools; it is required that young Armenians also form sentences denying "the groundless Armenian allegations."
**** The Education Minister Hüseyin Celik not only requires from the Armenian youth that he write an essay against the "groundless Armenian allegations," but also says that at the end of the year he will check the work done on this subject. What can the Armenian schools do? If they don't carry out this instruction, inspectors will arrive and harass them. Therefore, they will do what they are told to do and tell children about "the unfounded Armenian genocide allegations."
**** In reality, this propaganda is more deceptive for Turkish children: the Armenian child will hear one way or another from his family, relatives and eyewitnesses still living why the number of Armenians living in this country dropped from 2 million to 60,000. He will also know that he needs to say at school the opposite of what he hears at home. Whereas, what will the Turkish child do? Will he accept that an atrocity which took place during the Ottoman rule 88 years ago, the deportation and destruction of an entire population from its land, is a "so-called truth" or a "lie"? Then what kind of disillusion will he experience when people around the world will explain to him about the reality?
**** What happened in history did happen. It is impossible to fight against realities. Should German people defend Hitler, who assassinated millions of Jews for the simple reason that he is German? 1915 is one of the painful pages of the Ottoman history: on this date, the Committee of Union and Progress committed a huge crime against humanity. Why should I take the responsibility for that crime, and oppose the historical truths by asserting that all of this did not take place? Why shall we mislead young brains with lies? What kind of damage does such a propaganda cause in the brains of the youth. What will this society gain, by educating the youth with legends that are unreal?
Oral Calislar
From the Turkish daily Cumhuriyet
Date: Mon, 12 May 2003General Antranik (1865-1927): I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.
-
We are yet to hear from Turks on this topic...
I'm waiting for them to comment, then I'll post my comment.
How come people of Turkish descent are not participating in this topic ?
Why is it so hard to realize the facts, now I might not understand the politics of the topic, but I just wonder...What makes you not believe that these atrocities never happened?
(Please remember you asked my idea before growing angry and begin to insult, curse me or Turkish nation. Also I would be very happy if we dont engage into a arguement with Hellektor.)
With Regards
Comment
-
Originally posted by Soorp AsdvadzWhy is it so hard to realize the facts, now I might not understand the politics of the topic, but I just wonder...What makes you not believe that these atrocities never happened?
Comment
-
Originally posted by elendilOkay I will be the first it seems..
First of all no Turk in Turkey (expect ultra-nationalists) will claim that Aremenians were not taken out, exiled or massacred. By all means, I have always said and people I know say that we have done these events. Now the main point is, Turkish side tells a different story. No, not the goverment. The people who live there. If you go to Van, Erzurum or a city in north-east, eastern Turkey ask people about these events that happened at 1915. Every person I spoke to, has a memory of his relative being taken out by Armenian gangs, or an atrocity that has been commited to another person. Thus Due to collapse of Ottoman Empire and hard conditions, we took hard pre-cautions, taking out men of Armenians and exiling the families. Not to mention the alliance between Russia and Armenians in promise of Armenia. I am sure after the retreat of Russia, Turkish army acted with bloodlust to take revenge. Thus the outcome has been a tragedy in my view a genocide in yours. Now, I will not use the term of backstabbing, betrayal since you were a different culture, a different people. But the land you live consisted a part of empire thus Armenian people lived with Turkish and Kurdish people. In interest of safety of our people, we took Armenians out. That is our view generally.
(Please remember you asked my idea before growing angry and begin to insult, curse me or Turkish nation. Also I would be very happy if we dont engage into a arguement with Hellektor.)
With Regards
Elendil, maybe that's what you truely believe, but trust me that was not what happened.
First of all you need to know that people who are telling these stories even the old generations of Turks who used to live at that time, are not telling the whole story. Those people mainly are the Caucas Turks who were replaced the Armenians in the Armenian Villayets.. If you go ask them again, and make sure of the details, you'll know that whatever they are talking about had happened in fact long after the deportation and the extermination of the Armenian population of the empire. Ask them again about the time, and they will tell you that it was after that ! And by the way, those are the people who were given the houses and privet properties of the Armenians after they were kicked out.
Whatever they claim that Armenian gangs might have done, CAN NOT BE COMPAIRED to the campagin by the well organized, well armed and backed up by every authority in the empire and that is the Ottoman Army, and the Police force and even the tax collectors and the Hamidian Calivary !!
It is beyond reason to compaire these two groups and it is ridiculous to conclude that it was a mutual conflict.
It's interesting that you used the term "in the interest of safty our people we needed to take the Armenians out" !!
If that proves anything, it will prove that Armenians were alienated on their own homes, it means that they had NO CIVIL RIGHTS of any type, and it means that they were worthless people... I don't know how can you justify this sentence, how can you justify uprooting of AN ENTIRE POPULATION with a pretext of so-called Armenian Gangs...
2500 (or more) Armenian Intellectuals were MURDERED in Istanbul April 24 1915 .. Doctors, lawyers, poets, painters, architects, politicians and clerics ... not one of them was even given any trial, no one of them even had any relation to any kind of resistance...
Why did they murder them ?? and if they killed them because they were organizing the resistance (which they did not ) ?? Why still claim that Armenian ENTIRE POPULATION of ottoman empire was DANGROUS...
NO MATTER HOW YOU PUT IT .... Punishing the ENTIRE POPULATION CAN NOT BE JUSTIFIED, NORE LEGITEMIZED !!!
We are talking about punishment of ENTIRE POPULATION ... Do you have any idea what does that mean ???
I thought you are wiser than that, I thought you might have the "REASON" to think things through... It seems that I was wrong, you are just like the vast majority of Turks, desprate to believe that your history was not shameful.. and you are ready to hang up to anything even if it does not make sense to keep that belief !
Good Luck with that !
Comment
-
First of all thanks for keeping calm I appreciate it.
As to your words;
First of all you need to know that people who are telling these stories even the old generations of Turks who used to live at that time, are not telling the whole story. Those people mainly are the Caucas Turks who were replaced the Armenians in the Armenian Villayets.. If you go ask them again, and make sure of the details, you'll know that whatever they are talking about had happened in fact long after the deportation and the extermination of the Armenian population of the empire. Ask them again about the time, and they will tell you that it was after that ! And by the way, those are the people who were given the houses and privet properties of the Armenians after they were kicked out.
Whatever they claim that Armenian gangs might have done, CAN NOT BE COMPAIRED to the campagin by the well organized, well armed and backed up by every authority in the empire and that is the Ottoman Army, and the Police force and even the tax collectors and the Hamidian Calivary !!
It is beyond reason to compaire these two groups and it is ridiculous to conclude that it was a mutual conflict.
It's interesting that you used the term "in the interest of safty our people we needed to take the Armenians out" !!
If that proves anything, it will prove that Armenians were alienated on their own homes, it means that they had NO CIVIL RIGHTS of any type, and it means that they were worthless people... I don't know how can you justify this sentence, how can you justify uprooting of AN ENTIRE POPULATION with a pretext of so-called Armenian Gangs...
2500 (or more) Armenian Intellectuals were MURDERED in Istanbul April 24 1915 .. Doctors, lawyers, poets, painters, architects, politicians and clerics ... not one of them was even given any trial, no one of them even had any relation to any kind of resistance...
Why did they murder them ?? and if they killed them because they were organizing the resistance (which they did not ) ?? Why still claim that Armenian ENTIRE POPULATION of ottoman empire was DANGROUS...
NO MATTER HOW YOU PUT IT .... Punishing the ENTIRE POPULATION CAN NOT BE JUSTIFIED, NORE LEGITEMIZED !!!
We are talking about punishment of ENTIRE POPULATION ... Do you have any idea what does that mean ???
I thought you are wiser than that, I thought you might have the "REASON" to think things through... It seems that I was wrong, you are just like the vast majority of Turks, desprate to believe that your history was not shameful.. and you are ready to hang up to anything even if it does not make sense to keep that belief !
Good Luck with that !
I am quite a reasonable guy, I can assure you but perhaps not enough to meet your standarts in terms of values of humanity. Where as I dont give these values much credit.
I apologize once again if I caused any pain or anger in you people though also I remind you the very thread itself has asked to hear our side in the issue. I will say no more in this thread before my bretheren also answers the question
that was adressed to them.
With Regards
Comment
Comment