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Question to people of Turkish decent

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  • #1

    Question to people of Turkish decent

    Why is it so hard to realize the facts, now I might not understand the politics of the topic, but I just wonder...What makes you not believe that these atrocities never happened?
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Allegations Of "So-Called Armenian Genocide"

    **** One of the expressions of Cetin Altan that I like the most is "the propaganda of Turks aiming at Turks." On all international issues, we very much like to propagandize to each other - a propaganda which is not based on realities. According to us, the entire world has lined up to be unfair towards Turks and to harm them. Perhaps this is a way of becoming content. But after such propaganda, when we come across the realities of life, we realize that the truth is absolutely not as we thought it was, and the disillusion we feel leads to other dramas.
    **** The Cyprus issue is one of these subjects of propaganda. Finally the Greeks have started to join the European Union; even though, they had convinced us that such a thing could not happen. Most Turks believe that Denktas is a genius in politics. If you say, "look, in 29 years the Cypriot Turks stayed far behind the Cypriot Greeks," the majority will not believe it, or if you say, "the politics of Denktas have put both Turkey and the Cypriot Turks in an awkward position for 29 years, causing economic crises, and causing Turkey to be condemned many times by the Security Council of the UN" the majority will not listen to it, they prefer to believe legends which will make them happy.
    **** On the issue of the "so-called genocide," too, we like very much to propagandize to ourselves. First of all, we start by indicating that the allegation is about a "so-called" genocide. Recently, I wrote in these columns on the basis of documents that the Council of the Higher Education, YOK, had sent a series of instructions to university rectors and deans and aimed to begin to train educators on this issue. Therefore YOK would determine in advance what and how scientists would think about the "Armenian Deportation," and the latter would work in the light of that . There you are - a scientific study in the Turkish style!
    **** That scientific study, carried out at the university level, has apparently descended to the high, secondary, and primary school levels. In the introductory section of the decree dated 14th April 2003, signed by the Education Minister Huseyin Celik, it is explained how this work will be done and it is indicated that it was decided by the Commission of the Instruction and Education that the subjects relating to the Armenian, Pontus Greek and Assyrian allegations should appear in the "social knowledges" course of the 5th and 7th years of the primary education programs, in the 1st and 2nd history courses, and the history of reforms of the Republic of Turkey course, as well as in the Kemalism course of the secondary education programs. Emphasizing that these decisions were put into practice starting from the school year 2002-2003, it is requested that conferences be organized in primary and secondary schools dealing with the theme that "the Armenian allegations are groundless."
    **** The instructions sent to schools are not limited to only that: it is requested that schools take advantage of those teachers and expert scholars who have already taken part in congresses organized around this subject. Yes, every effort will be made so that, first, it is recognized that the "so-called Armenian Genocide" is a "so-called" one, then, by means of propaganda, those denials will be taught to children and youth and will be engraved in their minds. It is written in the editorial of the weekly "Agos" that the same is requested from Armenian schools; it is required that young Armenians also form sentences denying "the groundless Armenian allegations."
    **** The Education Minister Hüseyin Celik not only requires from the Armenian youth that he write an essay against the "groundless Armenian allegations," but also says that at the end of the year he will check the work done on this subject. What can the Armenian schools do? If they don't carry out this instruction, inspectors will arrive and harass them. Therefore, they will do what they are told to do and tell children about "the unfounded Armenian genocide allegations."
    **** In reality, this propaganda is more deceptive for Turkish children: the Armenian child will hear one way or another from his family, relatives and eyewitnesses still living why the number of Armenians living in this country dropped from 2 million to 60,000. He will also know that he needs to say at school the opposite of what he hears at home. Whereas, what will the Turkish child do? Will he accept that an atrocity which took place during the Ottoman rule 88 years ago, the deportation and destruction of an entire population from its land, is a "so-called truth" or a "lie"? Then what kind of disillusion will he experience when people around the world will explain to him about the reality?
    **** What happened in history did happen. It is impossible to fight against realities. Should German people defend Hitler, who assassinated millions of Jews for the simple reason that he is German? 1915 is one of the painful pages of the Ottoman history: on this date, the Committee of Union and Progress committed a huge crime against humanity. Why should I take the responsibility for that crime, and oppose the historical truths by asserting that all of this did not take place? Why shall we mislead young brains with lies? What kind of damage does such a propaganda cause in the brains of the youth. What will this society gain, by educating the youth with legends that are unreal?


    Oral Calislar
    From the Turkish daily Cumhuriyet
    Date: Mon, 12 May 2003
    General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

    Comment

    • #3
      Very powerful, true, and very sad, not only for Armenians, but obviously for Turks too.

      Comment

      • #4
        Indeed...So really, it is just the government that is "forcing" the Turks to act in such a way? Or do Turks have a choice as to what they want to believe?
        Is Anti-Genocide Propoganda taught in Turkish schools?

        Comment

        • #5
          Yes, unfortunately. This denial is active, and not passive, which means that Turkey spends a lot of money and resources to ensure that history is corrupted in their favor.

          Comment

          • #6
            We are yet to hear from Turks on this topic...
            I'm waiting for them to comment, then I'll post my comment.

            How come people of Turkish descent are not participating in this topic ?

            Comment

            • #7
              We are yet to hear from Turks on this topic...
              I'm waiting for them to comment, then I'll post my comment.

              How come people of Turkish descent are not participating in this topic ?
              Okay I will be the first it seems..

              Why is it so hard to realize the facts, now I might not understand the politics of the topic, but I just wonder...What makes you not believe that these atrocities never happened?
              First of all no Turk in Turkey (expect ultra-nationalists) will claim that Aremenians were not taken out, exiled or massacred. By all means, I have always said and people I know say that we have done these events. Now the main point is, Turkish side tells a different story. No, not the goverment. The people who live there. If you go to Van, Erzurum or a city in north-east, eastern Turkey ask people about these events that happened at 1915. Every person I spoke to, has a memory of his relative being taken out by Armenian gangs, or an atrocity that has been commited to another person. Thus Due to collapse of Ottoman Empire and hard conditions, we took hard pre-cautions, taking out men of Armenians and exiling the families. Not to mention the alliance between Russia and Armenians in promise of Armenia. I am sure after the retreat of Russia, Turkish army acted with bloodlust to take revenge. Thus the outcome has been a tragedy in my view a genocide in yours. Now, I will not use the term of backstabbing, betrayal since you were a different culture, a different people. But the land you live consisted a part of empire thus Armenian people lived with Turkish and Kurdish people. In interest of safety of our people, we took Armenians out. That is our view generally.

              (Please remember you asked my idea before growing angry and begin to insult, curse me or Turkish nation. Also I would be very happy if we dont engage into a arguement with Hellektor.)

              With Regards

              Comment

              • #8
                Originally posted by Soorp Asdvadz
                Why is it so hard to realize the facts, now I might not understand the politics of the topic, but I just wonder...What makes you not believe that these atrocities never happened?
                Everybody in Turkey knows that these atrocities happened since it happened throughout the Ottoman Empire, not only in Eastern Turkey, and nearly everybodies great grandparents were right in the middle of this massive bloodbath many of whom did not survive it.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by elendil
                  Okay I will be the first it seems..



                  First of all no Turk in Turkey (expect ultra-nationalists) will claim that Aremenians were not taken out, exiled or massacred. By all means, I have always said and people I know say that we have done these events. Now the main point is, Turkish side tells a different story. No, not the goverment. The people who live there. If you go to Van, Erzurum or a city in north-east, eastern Turkey ask people about these events that happened at 1915. Every person I spoke to, has a memory of his relative being taken out by Armenian gangs, or an atrocity that has been commited to another person. Thus Due to collapse of Ottoman Empire and hard conditions, we took hard pre-cautions, taking out men of Armenians and exiling the families. Not to mention the alliance between Russia and Armenians in promise of Armenia. I am sure after the retreat of Russia, Turkish army acted with bloodlust to take revenge. Thus the outcome has been a tragedy in my view a genocide in yours. Now, I will not use the term of backstabbing, betrayal since you were a different culture, a different people. But the land you live consisted a part of empire thus Armenian people lived with Turkish and Kurdish people. In interest of safety of our people, we took Armenians out. That is our view generally.

                  (Please remember you asked my idea before growing angry and begin to insult, curse me or Turkish nation. Also I would be very happy if we dont engage into a arguement with Hellektor.)

                  With Regards

                  Elendil, maybe that's what you truely believe, but trust me that was not what happened.

                  First of all you need to know that people who are telling these stories even the old generations of Turks who used to live at that time, are not telling the whole story. Those people mainly are the Caucas Turks who were replaced the Armenians in the Armenian Villayets.. If you go ask them again, and make sure of the details, you'll know that whatever they are talking about had happened in fact long after the deportation and the extermination of the Armenian population of the empire. Ask them again about the time, and they will tell you that it was after that ! And by the way, those are the people who were given the houses and privet properties of the Armenians after they were kicked out.

                  Whatever they claim that Armenian gangs might have done, CAN NOT BE COMPAIRED to the campagin by the well organized, well armed and backed up by every authority in the empire and that is the Ottoman Army, and the Police force and even the tax collectors and the Hamidian Calivary !!
                  It is beyond reason to compaire these two groups and it is ridiculous to conclude that it was a mutual conflict.


                  It's interesting that you used the term "in the interest of safty our people we needed to take the Armenians out" !!
                  If that proves anything, it will prove that Armenians were alienated on their own homes, it means that they had NO CIVIL RIGHTS of any type, and it means that they were worthless people... I don't know how can you justify this sentence, how can you justify uprooting of AN ENTIRE POPULATION with a pretext of so-called Armenian Gangs...

                  2500 (or more) Armenian Intellectuals were MURDERED in Istanbul April 24 1915 .. Doctors, lawyers, poets, painters, architects, politicians and clerics ... not one of them was even given any trial, no one of them even had any relation to any kind of resistance...

                  Why did they murder them ?? and if they killed them because they were organizing the resistance (which they did not ) ?? Why still claim that Armenian ENTIRE POPULATION of ottoman empire was DANGROUS...

                  NO MATTER HOW YOU PUT IT .... Punishing the ENTIRE POPULATION CAN NOT BE JUSTIFIED, NORE LEGITEMIZED !!!

                  We are talking about punishment of ENTIRE POPULATION ... Do you have any idea what does that mean ???


                  I thought you are wiser than that, I thought you might have the "REASON" to think things through... It seems that I was wrong, you are just like the vast majority of Turks, desprate to believe that your history was not shameful.. and you are ready to hang up to anything even if it does not make sense to keep that belief !


                  Good Luck with that !

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    First of all thanks for keeping calm I appreciate it.

                    As to your words;

                    First of all you need to know that people who are telling these stories even the old generations of Turks who used to live at that time, are not telling the whole story. Those people mainly are the Caucas Turks who were replaced the Armenians in the Armenian Villayets.. If you go ask them again, and make sure of the details, you'll know that whatever they are talking about had happened in fact long after the deportation and the extermination of the Armenian population of the empire. Ask them again about the time, and they will tell you that it was after that ! And by the way, those are the people who were given the houses and privet properties of the Armenians after they were kicked out.
                    You are saying this and I have full confidence that you are not lying. But Maral, who would you have me believe? There were Kurds,Turks before deportation in eastern Anatolia of considerable size. I am %100 sure of that while it is also correct that after Armenians were cast out their residences these people were replaced by Turks and Kurds, that is also true. However, it is the people (my people) that tell about Armenian gang acts. Not my state. If I cast their experiences, memories as lies and accept your eyewitnesses testifyings as truth, Is this not nominating my people as liars?

                    Whatever they claim that Armenian gangs might have done, CAN NOT BE COMPAIRED to the campagin by the well organized, well armed and backed up by every authority in the empire and that is the Ottoman Army, and the Police force and even the tax collectors and the Hamidian Calivary !!
                    It is beyond reason to compaire these two groups and it is ridiculous to conclude that it was a mutual conflict.
                    Ofcourse not, but that is what war is. There is no type of war that sides which wage war or let me say that leads a campaign can be equal in terms of power, authority. Such is not the nature of conflicts.

                    It's interesting that you used the term "in the interest of safty our people we needed to take the Armenians out" !!
                    If that proves anything, it will prove that Armenians were alienated on their own homes, it means that they had NO CIVIL RIGHTS of any type, and it means that they were worthless people... I don't know how can you justify this sentence, how can you justify uprooting of AN ENTIRE POPULATION with a pretext of so-called Armenian Gangs...
                    There is no justification here. But at that time, at those conditions our safety(partly speaking) demanded such desperate pre-cautions. I may be hurting you while speaking this blunt but facts are pretty twisted in the Armenian issue of Turkey. Saying that taking out a people is a necessity in terms of security is also pretty inhumane, but this is war and in war people are killed,exiled regardless of innocence. Also in war it is a fact that people's life cost merely a thing.(Including ours)

                    2500 (or more) Armenian Intellectuals were MURDERED in Istanbul April 24 1915 .. Doctors, lawyers, poets, painters, architects, politicians and clerics ... not one of them was even given any trial, no one of them even had any relation to any kind of resistance...

                    Why did they murder them ?? and if they killed them because they were organizing the resistance (which they did not ) ?? Why still claim that Armenian ENTIRE POPULATION of ottoman empire was DANGROUS...
                    Perhaps because they were Christians, perhaps they were seen as intellectual architects of further Armeninan propaganda, resistance. The reasons could vary pretty much....

                    NO MATTER HOW YOU PUT IT .... Punishing the ENTIRE POPULATION CAN NOT BE JUSTIFIED, NORE LEGITEMIZED !!!

                    We are talking about punishment of ENTIRE POPULATION ... Do you have any idea what does that mean ???
                    I know what that means. Besides I have no interest of justification. What can I say to people whose grandfather and families have been killed in war at those times? Nothing most certainly.

                    I thought you are wiser than that, I thought you might have the "REASON" to think things through... It seems that I was wrong, you are just like the vast majority of Turks, desprate to believe that your history was not shameful.. and you are ready to hang up to anything even if it does not make sense to keep that belief !

                    Good Luck with that !
                    My history is not shameful for me. Bloodshed is a natural aspect of mankind in the progress of passing to modernity from feodality. Being a people that keeps going from places to places on horseback, it must be handed, even our survival was unexpected. We made it though. I believe that we, Turks are pulling it together save Kurdish issue.

                    I am quite a reasonable guy, I can assure you but perhaps not enough to meet your standarts in terms of values of humanity. Where as I dont give these values much credit.

                    I apologize once again if I caused any pain or anger in you people though also I remind you the very thread itself has asked to hear our side in the issue. I will say no more in this thread before my bretheren also answers the question
                    that was adressed to them.

                    With Regards

                    Comment

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