Question to people of Turkish decent

[hitite]

But if accension into the EU for Turkey only requires their admitting the genocide...Then would they do it?...Would Turkey admit genocide if it could mean that they will be admitted as a European state?

If admitting the Genocide were the only thing left for accession then Turkey would not have to admit anything; Turkey would be asking all EU members for them to admit to their own genocides.

However if you are asking: if for some magical reason where the EU sees itself as the pedestal of morality and healer of past wrong doings it is willing to accept Turkey, as it is today, into the EU with just admitting to the A.G. I still think Turkey would not admit because the Turkish people do not believe in it. Govenrments in charge rarely will commit such political suicide. If at some point in the future, after a good deal of education and interaction with Armenia and the diaspora, after trade and friendship, after people tell their horror stories to eachother when the Turkish people start to understand, only then will politicians admit. This is a long process but still possible since (as I have stated many times before), it is happening with Greece, Turkey's arch 'enemy'.

(Today there is even an extremely popular TV series in which a Turkish girl, daughter of a baklavaci from Gaziantep marries a rich Greek boy. Its a comedy-drama where old enmities are tragicomically addressed and somehow resolved: http://www.yabancidamat.tv/en/anasayfa.asp)

[phantom]

If admitting the Genocide were the only thing left for accession then Turkey would not have to admit anything; Turkey would be asking all EU members for them to admit to their own genocides.

However if you are asking: if for some magical reason where the EU sees itself as the pedestal of morality and healer of past wrong doings it is willing to accept Turkey, as it is today, into the EU with just admitting to the A.G. I still think Turkey would not admit because the Turkish people do not believe in it. Govenrments in charge rarely will commit such political suicide. If at some point in the future, after a good deal of education and interaction with Armenia and the diaspora, after trade and friendship, after people tell their horror stories to eachother when the Turkish people start to understand, only then will politicians admit. This is a long process but still possible since (as I have stated many times before), it is happening with Greece, Turkey's arch 'enemy'.

(Today there is even an extremely popular TV series in which a Turkish girl, daughter of a baklavaci from Gaziantep marries a rich Greek boy. Its a comedy-drama where old enmities are tragicomically addressed and somehow resolved: http://www.yabancidamat.tv/en/anasayfa.asp)

You're right, some of the Euro countries are really in no position to judge other countries who have committed Genocides. That's why I think Turkey should be doing this on its own. How is it possible that the subject is so fully documented and the conclusions so soundly made, while new Turkish organizations are popping up and laying flowers on the graves of Genocidal maniacs like Talaat? Even if it wasn't a Genocide, I think we all here agree that the Ittihadists ethnically cleansed the land of Armenians and Assyrians, at the very least. How stupid does Turkey look when it sends it representatives out into the world to deny these things. How stupid does it look when its people are demonstrating in the streets of Berlin against Genocide recognition and laying wreaths at the tombstones of mass murderers? Why is Turkey so stupid! True, the Euro countries shouldn't preach, but the Turks make it too damn easy for everyone to look down on them. Take the damn high road, why don't you, and then you can look the Euros in the eyes and tell them to go f--- themselves; then you can pass resolutions acknowledging the Algerian Genocide, and the Genocide in Congo, etc., without being a hypocrit! Do you understand what I'm saying?

[1.5 million]

Yes Phantom exactly - I have made this point so many times. It is up to the Turks really. They need to show some maturity as a nation and as a civilized people - not this constant "absurd knees bent running around behavior" as it were. And for the last time - Armenians are not demanding recognition of tragedies caused by Europeans (though most are pretty much already recognized - and certainly to mention such is not a criminal offense in those countries nor is it taught that these things were justified and such) - anyway - Armenians are asking for Turks to show consideration towards them - it is a rather simple thing really - however it is something that Turkey and Turks are just not quite up to doing at the moment - so very sad - and quite pathetic really.

[hitite]

You're right, some of the Euro countries are really in no position to judge other countries who have committed Genocides. That's why I think Turkey should be doing this on its own. How is it possible that the subject is so fully documented and the conclusions so soundly made, while new Turkish organizations are popping up and laying flowers on the graves of Genocidal maniacs like Talaat? Even if it wasn't a Genocide, I think we all here agree that the Ittihadists ethnically cleansed the land of Armenians and Assyrians, at the very least. How stupid does Turkey look when it sends it representatives out into the world to deny these things. How stupid does it look when its people are demonstrating in the streets of Berlin against Genocide recognition and laying wreaths at the tombstones of mass murderers? Why is Turkey so stupid! True, the Euro countries shouldn't preach, but the Turks make it too damn easy for everyone to look down on them. Take the damn high road, why don't you, and then you can look the Euros in the eyes and tell them to go f--- themselves; then you can pass resolutions acknowledging the Algerian Genocide, and the Genocide in Congo, etc., without being a hypocrit! Do you understand what I'm saying?

It is very clear to me. I look at the population of what used to be called the "Ermeni Vilayetleri" and I do not see a single Armenian left.

However, all these Turks that are demonstrating in Berlin and in front of Talats grave IMHO are all reactionary. I'm not saying what they are doing is right. Nobody has been laying flowers at Talats feet until today because he was and to some degree is still considered on the ranks of traitor for what he put the country through back then. Why all of a sudden this interest and admiration?

The Armenian political effort to have the A.G. recognized in foreign parliaments in order to put pressure on Turkey through Turkeys traditional allies is what is causing these reactions. These reactions are signs of a growing Turkish nationalism against the EU and everything that is being force fed rather than explaining and convincing. Turks argumanet would be that if Armenians are putting flowers at the feet of people like Dro and Andranik and nobody cares why is all this fuss about us doing the same with Talat. I do not blame Armenians for seeking 3rd party recognition for the A.G. but it is inevitable that this will feed ultra-nationalists and the relatively new ulusalcilar in Turkey. Most of these rallies are prepared by this ulusalcı gang led by Dogu Perinchek. So its not Turkey or the Turkish government that is preparing these even thought the governemnt may be assisting them because they politically would not want to be directly associated with these ulusalcilar garbage. More Armenian pressure will make heros out of these idiots. I'm not saying that the people who attend these meetings are idiots since most are diaspora Turks who are living in difficult conditions outside their country and people who tend to be more natioanlistic than Turks in Turkey. So when the "hypocrite" Europeans tell Turks to recognize the A.G. isnt it just natural for Turks to say "go deal with your own past first".... its just human nature. Turkey is not ready to take the "high road" yet but those who already claim they are on this road will meet reaction when they expect Turkey to be even better than what they are already. I think the WHOLE approach, the whole Armenain and Turkish propaganda is destructive where it could have been tremendously constructive. It is all just so sad.

So yes, I understand what you are saying. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Joseph]

I appreciate your explanation. Thank you.

[TurQ]

Hitite

You put it very well, couldnt say any better.

I personally did not know that the Talat Pasha bus stop(now the metro stop as well) in Shishli was actually named after Talat Pasha himself for long long time. MOst people in TUrkey would not even know who Talat is(just make a survey among high school and unviersity students), I'll hang my self if the outcome is more than 20%.

These ulusalci people really make me sick. They were once communist now nationalist(but still say they are socialist or maoist/marxist). They used to call TUrkish army as an occupier Army in Cyprus now they say government is actually selling out Cyprus! and They call for military coup(they used to curse TUrkish military for coups). Perincek was buddies with PKK militants and Ocalan, he visited PKK terror camps and gave flowers to those brutal terrorists, now he says the biggest danger is seperatism. Now they are trying to be heros by being against Armenians.They tried to make a show in Lozan
calling recognitionis an effort by emperialists. DOnt get suprised if they advocate for Armenian cause
in future!
They are so sickening populists.

However, all these Turks that are demonstrating in Berlin and in front of Talats grave IMHO are all reactionary. I'm not saying what they are doing is right. Nobody has been laying flowers at Talats feet until today because he was and to some degree is still considered on the ranks of traitor for what he put the country through back then. Why all of a sudden this interest and admiration?

The Armenian political effort to have the A.G. recognized in foreign parliaments in order to put pressure on Turkey through Turkeys traditional allies is what is causing these reactions. These reactions are signs of a growing Turkish nationalism against the EU and everything that is being force fed rather than explaining and convincing. Turks argumanet would be that if Armenians are putting flowers at the feet of people like Dro and Andranik and nobody cares why is all this fuss about us doing the same with Talat. I do not blame Armenians for seeking 3rd party recognition for the A.G. but it is inevitable that this will feed ultra-nationalists and the relatively new ulusalcilar in Turkey. Most of these rallies are prepared by this ulusalcı gang led by Dogu Perinchek. So its not Turkey or the Turkish government that is preparing these even thought the governemnt may be assisting them because they politically would not want to be directly associated with these ulusalcilar garbage. More Armenian pressure will make heros out of these idiots. I'm not saying that the people who attend these meetings are idiots since most are diaspora Turks who are living in difficult conditions outside their country and people who tend to be more natioanlistic than Turks in Turkey. So when the "hypocrite" Europeans tell Turks to recognize the A.G. isnt it just natural for Turks to say "go deal with your own past first".... its just human nature. Turkey is not ready to take the "high road" yet but those who already claim they are on this road will meet reaction when they expect Turkey to be even better than what they are already. I think the WHOLE approach, the whole Armenain and Turkish propaganda is destructive where it could have been tremendously constructive. It is all just so sad.

So yes, I understand what you are saying. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[TurQ]

I dont know about the numbers but I remember Masrop Mutafyan saying in an interview that "whichever province I go in Turkey, I met with Armenians".

I think this is the point where the confusion starts(at least for me), because in some certain vilayets
that I know Armenians returned back in big nubers to their native provinces in 1918 and after, they left after the indepence or immigrated gradually in 30s 40s 50s etc.
For example Izmit, theere were 18,000 Armenians in the city, 4,000 got back in 1918. In Sivas I know Armenians returned back to their villages(I dont know the exact numbers
but deifinetly now few). In Malatya from my family I know that there were lots of Armenians living in
city, my granddad did business with them had lots of friends among them. In HAtay it was the same case
Armenians used to live there till 1939, the French frightened them and they have immigrated when French
withdrew from Hatay. I know at least for Bitlis that tens of thousands of Armenians escaped to Russian
side and immigrated to Russia with them. I belive same things had happened in Erzurum, Kars, Mush and Van.
As far as I know the number is at least around 300,000 who had immigrated to Russian controlled areas.

It is true that 99% of Anatolian Armenians are not living in Anatolia now, but 1915 events are not the only reason.
It is really a complicated issue, I was reading about the first Turks who immigrated to US in 1920s.
They were the ones who were neighbours of Armenians, and they were doing business with those Armenians
and eventually immigrated to US. Not suprisingly some of them immigrated to Boston,
Watertown named "Su Sehri" town of Sivas where Armenians used to live. Obivously even those times the relations
between an average Armenian and an average TUrk was alot better than today.

[QUOTE=hitite]It is very clear to me. I look at the population of what used to be called the "Ermeni Vilayetleri" and I do not see a single Armenian left.

QUOTE]

[Joseph]

A group from my church toured Eastern Anatolia in the summer of 2001 and met several Armenian individuals and even some small groups. Most were by now Muslim and had Turkish names, basically had becomes Turks for a couple of generations at least. The majority of these people were part Armenian, usually an Armenian grandparent in their ancestry. It appeared that many of the Armenian remnants melded in with the local Kurds, the same story with the Assyrians (Suriani) they encountered.

Some Armenians did come back in 1918, especially in Cilicia but after the nationalist revolution, many were killed or fled to France, U.S., Argentina.

Until WWII, there were upwards to 300,000 Armenians left in Istanbul but during the war and the special tax, work camps, many of those remaing fled and again in 1955 after the riots in Istanbul

As far as the Armenians in Hatay, I can certainly understand why they felt it necessary the leave. You can't really blame them.

When what was left of my family came to the U.S. in 1918 (originally from Marash and settled for a couple of years in Beirut beforehand) they settled in Watertown. I've never heard or any ethnic Turks living there, mostly there were Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians. Most Armenians in Watertown are originally from Kharpert, Marash, and Adana

[phantom]

A group from my church toured Eastern Anatolia in the summer of 2001 and met several Armenian individuals and even some small groups. Most were by now Muslim and had Turkish names, basically had becomes Turks for a couple of generations at least. The majority of these people were part Armenian, usually an Armenian grandparent in their ancestry. It appeared that many of the Armenian remnants melded in with the local Kurds, the same story with the Assyrians (Suriani) they encountered.

Some Armenians did come back in 1918, especially in Cilicia but after the nationalist revolution, many were killed or fled to France, U.S., Argentina.

Until WWII, there were upwards to 300,000 Armenians left in Istanbul but during the war and the special tax, work camps, many of those remaing fled and again in 1955 after the riots in Istanbul

As far as the Armenians in Hatay, I can certainly understand why they felt it necessary the leave. You can't really blame them.

When what was left of my family came to the U.S. in 1918 (originally from Marash and settled for a couple of years in Beirut beforehand) they settled in Watertown. I've never heard or any ethnic Turks living there, mostly there were Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians. Most Armenians in Watertown are originally from Kharpert, Marash, and Adana

I think you're pretty much right. Despite TurQ's efforts to put some bloom on the rose, the reality is that where once stood the cradle of our civilization, an abrupt end to it came in 1915. There may still be a couple of Armenians in each town, but what does that mean? Is there an Armenian presence in Anatolia today, other than the ruined monuments riddled with bullet holes and donkey poop? Isn't also amazing how TurQ blames the French for "scaring" the Armenians away from Cilicia? Again, always somebody else's fault!

[TurQ]

I didnt say there are lots of Armenians living in Anatolia right now, but in 50s early 60s at least I know in Malatya they did. Obviously they did not disappear in 1915 that was what I am saying. It happened gradually.
And obviously there was a state policy for the Armenians to immigrate them first to Istanbul and then abroad(tax thing in 40s, 55 events and 64 events).

All of the Armenians except, Vakifli and surrounding Armenian villages left before the Turkish takeover of Hatay. Armenians from vakifli say, the french took them back with trucks etc. They said they trust the new republic and saw no reason to leave Hatay. That was what I was refering to.

I think you're pretty much right. Despite TurQ's efforts to put some bloom on the rose, the reality is that where once stood the cradle of our civilization, an abrupt end to it came in 1915. There may still be a couple of Armenians in each town, but what does that mean? Is there an Armenian presence in Anatolia today, other than the ruined monuments riddled with bullet holes and donkey poop? Isn't also amazing how TurQ blames the French for "scaring" the Armenians away from Cilicia? Again, always somebody else's fault!