Question to people of Turkish decent

[phantom]

Anlamak istediginiz yere cekiyorsunuz ne diyim. Lafi taktiniz graduala. Sanki Ermenilerin cok buyuk kisminin o donemde ayrildigini el alem bilmiyormus gibi.

YOu guys stuck with a word, as if I do not know (may be millions of times expressed here)that most armenians did not killed or left in 15.

They are 100% relevant, again as Hrant says these guys are pursueing a policy over death, which is sick ok?
And you asked a resource that would be trustworthy for the numbers and I stated. If it was totally unrelevant why did you ask? Is 500,000 not a relevant number? THis contradicts the tragedy of 15? No!. He says Only around 20-40 thousands survived and left in Anatolia. This is WRONG!

I explained what I meant by gradual, if you guys dont want to understand like me thats your thing, but I expressed and explained what I meant, it is BIG full stop. 1.5's nacism and obsession with words is the reason not me. He can play with my English and twist things around, it just makes him the demogogue. Now he claims I am after Turkish Armenians.

This is just sick OK? Nothing but sick and an insult to me.

This people would rather see Turkish armenians be harmed by Turks than live in peace with Turks so that they can bad mouth against Turks. I am just astonished how you cant see his false attitude in discussions!

Look, I think we are all just misunderstanding each other. 1.5m doesn't trust you, and neither do I, by the way. Because of that mistrust, he finds things that aren't there. You obviously did not make any veiled threats against Armenians in Istanbul. And 1.5m obviously wouldn't wish for Turks to make veiled threats. Thus, your claim that he wishes for a divide like that is untenable, and 1.5's fear that you are making veiled threats is an overreaction.

At first I misunderstood your point and thought you were saying that the loss of the Armenian presence in Turkey was gradual. That would support your false thesis that there was no Genocide. But having reviewed the posts once again, I think what you were trying to say is that although a large percentage of the Armenians were gone after 1915, some came back, and after they came back, those returning members gradually disappeared for lots of different reasons over a period of several decades. Is that a correct understanding of your point?

If so, I would add that around 1918, some Armenians did return to their old villages, but that there was again, I believe, another abrupt elimination between 1920 and 1923 by Kemal Ataturk; and another one again in the late 1930s of the Armenians in Cilicia. At that point, I believe that few Armenians were left in Anatolia, and those few gradually disappeared over a period of time for various reasons.

[TurQ]

I personally dont think that 1.5 gives damn xxxx for Turkish Armenians. And obviously he is here just to feed his ego by "defeating" Turks and I dont find this ethical.

I wouldnt care about 1.5 trusting me, and find it quite natural that his having mistrust towards me or Turks like me. But isnt it childish that he is trying to portray me like some sort of government agent or paid by military? If he would do such accusation and hide behind the mistrust thing, seyimden asagi kasimpasa, i wouldnt care anymore.
What I care or think that the mistrust between Turkish born Armenians and Turks. This bothers me, If some Turkey born Armenian feel in secure or feel isolated I feel ashamed about it, eventhough I dont do it, I feel the responsibilty for it. It is the utmost coward thing to mentally and pyscologically torture a minority group living among us. If thats the caseI assume my responsilbty.

Yes you got my point right Phantom, that was exactly what I wanted to say.
I also said the 1915-16 events and 1918-23 are different in nature, I refer to my previous posts for this.

I am sorry again if I expressed it in a poor way.

Look, I think we are all just misunderstanding each other. 1.5m doesn't trust you, and neither do I, by the way. Because of that mistrust, he finds things that aren't there. You obviously did not make any veiled threats against Armenians in Istanbul. And 1.5m obviously wouldn't wish for Turks to make veiled threats. Thus, your claim that he wishes for a divide like that is untenable, and 1.5's fear that you are making veiled threats is an overreaction.

At first I misunderstood your point and thought you were saying that the loss of the Armenian presence in Turkey was gradual. That would support your false thesis that there was no Genocide. But having reviewed the posts once again, I think what you were trying to say is that although a large percentage of the Armenians were gone after 1915, some came back, and after they came back, those returning members gradually disappeared for lots of different reasons over a period of several decades. Is that a correct understanding of your point?

If so, I would add that around 1918, some Armenians did return to their old villages, but that there was again, I believe, another abrupt elimination between 1920 and 1923 by Kemal Ataturk; and another one again in the late 1930s of the Armenians in Cilicia. At that point, I believe that few Armenians were left in Anatolia, and those few gradually disappeared over a period of time for various reasons.

[1.5 million]

I didnt say there are lots of Armenians living in Anatolia right now, but in 50s early 60s at least I know in Malatya they did. Obviously they did not disappear in 1915 that was what I am saying. It happened gradually.

Here is your statement once again TurQ. Considering your persistent denial of acceptance of the term Genocide for what occured to Armenians in 1915 and your continuing efforts to downplay numbers of causualties and claim that far more survived to leave 1.5 million dead - it is clear to me what you are getting at here.

And FYI Armenians living in Istanbul are my kin - how dare you accuse me of not caring about their welfare - I very much do care. I know that as a group they live with a great deal of anxiety and fear - of what the Turks might do to them if again aroused. I have seen and experienced their paranoia in this regard and experienced their distrust because of this. Yet I must repond to Turks all accross the internet making claims that Armenian of Istanbul don't consider that there was a Genocide - just want Diasporan Armenians to let it go - and have nothing but love for their fellow Turks. While I understand Armenians in Istanbul want to be able to live and prosper in their nation and want to be treated as others and are in fact Turkish citizens with commonalitie of interests and views and such - this does not mean they have forgotten - in fact they assuradly cannot forget - as Turkish culture forces the fact on them that they are "other" and are in fact a member of a race which is looked down upon and villianized. While this may not prevent oppurtunities or such at the present time - it certainly has done so in the past - and worse - and while Armenians in Istanbul may not openly call for or even acknowledge and interest in Genocide recognition or such - don't be such a fool to think that they are doing other then attempting to avoid persecution from Turks for doing so - and that their hearts feel otherwise.

[phantom]

Here is your statement once again TurQ. Considering your persistent denial of acceptance of the term Genocide for what occured to Armenians in 1915 and your continuing efforts to downplay numbers of causualties and claim that far more survived to leave 1.5 million dead - it is clear to me what you are getting at here.

And FYI Armenians living in Istanbul are my kin - how dare you accuse me of not caring about their welfare - I very much do care. I know that as a group they live with a great deal of anxiety and fear - of what the Turks might do to them if again aroused. I have seen and experienced their paranoia in this regard and experienced their distrust because of this. Yet I must repond to Turks all accross the internet making claims that Armenian of Istanbul don't consider that there was a Genocide - just want Diasporan Armenians to let it go - and have nothing but love for their fellow Turks. While I understand Armenians in Istanbul want to be able to live and prosper in their nation and want to be treated as others and are in fact Turkish citizens with commonalitie of interests and views and such - this does not mean they have forgotten - in fact they assuradly cannot forget - as Turkish culture forces the fact on them that they are "other" and are in fact a member of a race which is looked down upon and villianized. While this may not prevent oppurtunities or such at the present time - it certainly has done so in the past - and worse - and while Armenians in Istanbul may not openly call for or even acknowledge and interest in Genocide recognition or such - don't be such a fool to think that they are doing other then attempting to avoid persecution from Turks for doing so - and that their hearts feel otherwise.

1.5m, it was that language that you quoted that originally confused me too. But I think if you read his posts in succession, the context in which that phrase was used, suggests that what he was trying to say is the following:

In 1915, most of the Armenians were eliminated; some came back in 1918. There was a community of them still existing in Malatya at least until the 50s and 60s, and they gradually disappeared over time.

I think, and hope, that's all he was trying to say. And he has confirmed above, that that was all he was trying to say. Sometimes, he has a roundabout way of saying things, because he wants to characterize the Armenian experience in as painless a manner as possible. But ultimately in this case, he wasn't saying that Armenians were eliminated gradually over time.

[phantom]

I personally dont think that 1.5 gives damn xxxx for Turkish Armenians. And obviously he is here just to feed his ego by "defeating" Turks and I dont find this ethical.

I wouldnt care about 1.5 trusting me, and find it quite natural that his having mistrust towards me or Turks like me. But isnt it childish that he is trying to portray me like some sort of government agent or paid by military? If he would do such accusation and hide behind the mistrust thing, seyimden asagi kasimpasa, i wouldnt care anymore.
What I care or think that the mistrust between Turkish born Armenians and Turks. This bothers me, If some Turkey born Armenian feel in secure or feel isolated I feel ashamed about it, eventhough I dont do it, I feel the responsibilty for it. It is the utmost coward thing to mentally and pyscologically torture a minority group living among us. If thats the caseI assume my responsilbty.

Yes you got my point right Phantom, that was exactly what I wanted to say.
I also said the 1915-16 events and 1918-23 are different in nature, I refer to my previous posts for this.

I am sorry again if I expressed it in a poor way.

I thank you for your concern over the feelings of Armenians living in Turkey, and I can promise you that at some level, Armenians in Turkey feel insecurity and anxiety. That is undeniable. They love Turkey; they love living there and enjoying their lives there; but there is an underlying anxiety that is tangible and real. There is no doubt about that. I am telling you that as a Turkish born Armenian who grew up in a community of Turkish born Armenians. And, by the way, it is understandable and quite natural that they would have such an anxiety. For Turks to think otherwise is wishful thinking and unrealistic.

Second, the reason why I don't trust you is that you are intelligent, thoughtful, and articulate, yet you don't acknowledge the undeniable. I expect denial from ignorant Turks, but from the smart ones, I expect them to understand 2 + 2 = 4. So your continued denial tells me that you are lying and trying to cover up the past. I believe that this is also why 1.5m thinks you're an agent of some sort for the Turkish govt.

[maral_m79]

You're joking right?

The few (Thousands - perhaps 20-40 thousand at best - just a guess from what I have read) - had hopes of repopulating villages and restarting - particualrly because of the hope from Wilson's promisses - well - most (most who managed to find something to go back to) didn't last beyond 1921-22 thanks to Karabakir and Ataturk - most were driven back out. Those Armenians who did manage to maintain within Turkey were indeed taxed and persecuted into leaving - particularly in 1955...however these were still but a very small fraction of Armenians who once occupied these lands. Talat boasted that he did more in three months then the Sultan was able to do in 30 years of attempting to "solve the Armenian problem" - and you would call this gradual? How much does the government pay you to spread this crap TurQ - you sound more pathetic with each post.

That's true ...
And allow me to add what I personally know ... NO ONE of my community, I mean the ones that ended where my grandfathers ended have every managed to return to their town in Turkey , NO ONE , NONE!!!

My own grandfather tried to go back TWICE in his life time, both times he was kicked out, and return to the Diaspora country that he had came from...

[maral_m79]

The gradual word was for the period from 1915 to 64, I would call it gradual.
Obivously I mentioned the tac, 55,64 events(message #50). The rest is your prejuidice and pre-assumptions. Think twice write once.

Who you triying to convince here TurQ ?? Do you think you know better about Armenians than they do about themselves ??

Think Twice and answer as much as you want, but you still can't convince us of something WE SAW with our OWN EYES !!

[maral_m79]

Sultan's problem was defined as "Eastern Problem" not the "Armenian Problem". .

True ...

But the Eastern Problem was converted into the Armenian Problem after the Independance of so many parts of the Ottoman Empire specially in the Balkans, and the creation of NEW states of Bulgaria, Romania, ...etc. and that happened in 1878 after the Peace treaty of San Stefano(Feb./March 1878), and confirmed in the Congress of Berlin (July 1878) !!

[maral_m79]

1915 was not a war between Armenians and Turks

Thank You !

Now try to help Turks understand that FACT, and maybe you can start with elendil !

[maral_m79]

1915 approximately 2 million Armenians in OE

1918 approximately 200,000 to 300,000 Armenians left in OE

Loss of approximately 1,700,000 to 1,800,000 Armenians (85-90% of the population) from their ancestral homeland of about 3 MILLENIA in a matter of 3 years.

This is what TurQ calls "gradual". I can only think of 3 words in response "Ha Siktir Ulan" . . . no offense

Small comment ...

Very few number of the Survivors remaind in OE ... the vast majority of them were exiled and could not return home !