Reperation? Ok but How much?

[MichealDuglas]

tell me a single amount for all the suffered Armenians.

tell me a single amount for all the suffered Armenians.
Germany paid 60 billion usd to jews, but they were 6 million.

[MichealDuglas]

money

Hovik, come on! Money is the only thing that matters! Be realistic.

[Gavur]

How about you give us your firstborns and give us a 50 year start to brainwash them against you?

[TurQ]

Thats Priceless

he was asking about numbers.

How about you give us your firstborns and give us a 50 year start to brainwash them against you?

[Gavur]

1.5M babies+A million$for each to raise them

[Hovik]

tell me a single amount for all the suffered Armenians.
Germany paid 60 billion usd to jews, but they were 6 million.

We're not Jews, this is a unique case that should be given unique consideration. I will not tell you a single amount because I don't feel qualified to qantify the suffering, and because recognition comes before everything else - let's tackle one issue at a time...

Hovik, come on! Money is the only thing that matters! Be realistic.

Perhaps to you its the ONLY thing - speak for yourself. In order for us to bury our dead we must have recognition.

[Heat]

Hovik, come on! Money is the only thing that matters! Be realistic.

That's not true and you know it. If you have a child and someone kills your child. Would you accept the killer being set free if he paid you a large sum of money? So cut the BS.

Speaking for myself, I'm not one who thinks that a recognition from turkey would heal anything since it will most definately be insincere and without remorse of any kind and in my opinion if they are forced to make an apology (as I don't expect them to do it willingly on their own, but will only do so and reluctatly if a third part convinces turkey that it would be in their best interest to do it), they will hate us more than they hate us now.

I also know for a fact that some Armenians don't want anything from the turks in either land or money as no amount of land or money can come even clost to undoing the damage they have caused. All they want is for turkey to just say a simple sorry for what their predecessors did to our people, but it seems that even a simple sorry is too much to ask, because as I said before, the turks don't think they did anything wrong in killing off one and a half million people as they think it was their right to do so and don't see why they should apologise for something they feel they had a right to do. In some ways they do admit to doing it, but since the world at large frowns on such acts, they have come up with all kinds of bogus reasons and justifications even blaming the victims in order to absolve themselves of any guilt.

Sure I want them to pay money, but it's not just for the sake of getting money or profit as some people might think or pretend. It's so that we can rebuild our country that they destroyed. Actually, I'm willing not to take a single penny from them in reperations if they return the lands and proprty that they stole and pay a third party to repair everything they destroyed.

Germany paid 60 billion, but besides the 60 billion, they also got all their property and money back too, plus they didn't have to pay any taxes in Germany for I don't know how long and I wouldn't be surprised if that's still going on today. Plus the swiss banks, back wages for slave labor etc etc.

From what I think you're getting at, it seems to me that you would like to calculate something like, since the jews got 60 billion for 6 million dead (I won't argue the 6 million figure here although the jews themselves say it was something like 4.5 million), then Armenians should only ask for 10.5 billion for 1.5 million dead, which you would consider to be fair. However, you're not calculating all the stolen or destroyed property and there hardly any destruction of jewish property, but the destruction of Armenian property was quite extensive.

[Hovik]

Great points heat, but don't you think there should be a process by which these events happen? Do you think they should be negotiated as the process progresses? Or do you think they should all be discussed and negotiated now?

[Heat]

Great points heat, but don't you think there should be a process by which these events happen? Do you think they should be negotiated as the process progresses? Or do you think they should all be discussed and negotiated now?

Sure. One step at a time and the first step is the one through the door to the courtroom. Once that initial first step is taken is when the actual process will begin, most definately be in the courts as I don't see any kind of out of court settlement since turkey will no way give us anything near what we want and are entitled to, and we won't accept the mere pittance they will offer. Any negotiations with turkey will be as fruitful as the negotiations with azebaboonistan over Artsakh.

The sticky part is that our day in court seems to be hinged on the "G" word, which is really the main reason why turkey and some of it's allies refuse to use the word (exept for israel as their reasons/excuses are much different and don't really have anything to do with their alliance, but I won't discuss that here.) as first of all there is no statute of limitations on genocide as you surely know and they know this too. So they all know that if the "G" word is used, turkey will be served (pun intended) with papers to appear in court and they also know that turkey doesn't stand a chance in getting out of this one.

It's no secret that some Armenians think that they will pretend to only want recognition (BTW, just to clarify, I'm not refering to you here) without land and proprty returned or reperations, but once turkey uses the "G" word, they'll pounce on them and then make all their demands since there's no statute of limitations on genocide etc etc. But these guys are dreaming. turks might be stupid, but they're not that stupid, plus they are most certainly being coached by others who are supporting them or take their side in this issue. "IF" turkey was to even consider using the "G" word and recognize it, you can bet that there are going to be strings attached and conditional. For one thing, they will say, "Since you Armenians claim that all you want is recognition and nothing else, then you won't mind signing this piece of paper saying that you relinquish any and all land, property and monetary claims from turkey forever and ever." First of all, Armenians would never sign such a thing. Secondly, if Armenia itself was to sign such a thing, it would be null and void since Armenia has no right to speak on behalf of the diaspora who actually happen to be the ones who have their lands and property occupied, stolen and the descendants of the survivors and the victims. So what will happen? It will have to be settled in court and I don't see any other way to resolve this.

As things stand now, this only talk and we're only throwing around ideas and opinions for whatever it's worth. We know that everything has been taken account of and "it's all in the computer" (as one high level person put it when I was discussing this very issue with him). When the time comes and we are in the court, you will see all the details clearly presented and it's not going to be a simple case of, "Just give us a figure." and then have the turks meet us half way and give us 50 cents on the dollar or some other bargain deal to get themselves off easy by returning a small fraction of what was ours to begin with. It's going to be very complicated, but I know that facts, figures and everything else has been worked on extensively and are still being prepaired for that day with a ton of jurisprudence and that's when the real negotiations will start.

If you have read the Versaille Treaty or the exerpts from it that I posted earlier, you will get a general idea of how things work when it comes to reperations and see that there is a general method to resolving these kinds of things and the moneys and reperations Germany paid to the jews will certainly be brought up as it set certain precedence for the crime and punishment of genocide, crime against humanity or whatever anyone wishes to call it, so the road to justice for this kind of thing has already been paved.

I don't know if you have ever been involved in a court case with an insurance company that refuses to pay a claim, but it can get quite complicated, so you can imagine how complicated a case of genocide and restitution claims for so vast a destruction can be.

[TurQ]

Can someone tell me how is Turkey gonna pay this, on what basis, on what logic

Why should TUrkey pay what's done by Ittihadists, where Turkish republic itself punished those Ittihadists.

You can keep on killing baby stuff which sounds too logical too your ears for raparations, but has nothing to do with the realities. This is a legal issue, just tell us what kind of legal steps you are planning to take?, are you aware that even genocide itself can not be legaly concluded in international courts. Lets face realities here, why do Armenians go after parliment after parliment? Cause they know that they cant win a case in UN courts on this, so they lobby in countries then finally aiming UN to accept it(which is a weak possibilty). DOnt get angry at me, I am just telling the reality, and dont make it a personal thing, I am just trying to say a legal battle regarding to raparations is doomed to failure, and what I think is this is used by diasporan leaders to fuel the anger of ordinary Armenians, further antagonize them towards Turkey and Turks.

I can understand the individials who have become rich thru getting Armenians' wealth, I can understand tracing those individuals and get those money back and give it to Armenian foundations. But how can you justify TUrkey to pay fines, that a country itself suffered from a merciless offensives by the so call great powers, a country that survived a total annihilation, cost of millions of death and millions of immigrants poured in?.


Heat your poor logic is "Turks killed Armenians so Turks in 21st century pay for it", but the reality is CUP policies costed those lives and Turks and Turkey had nothing todo with it.

This primitive approach "An ethnic group should be paying to antoher ethnic group" smells nothing but revenge, it is not justice or something. It is revenge and pure revenge.

As I said I can understand tracing those people who get rich from Armenians, but there is no logic and can there be no international law that would justify such raparations. In case Turkey accepts in fact the 1915 events was a genocide, again this kind of raparations can not be done by the state which has nothing to do with those events.

But if you are talking about getting land for compensation, thats whole another issue and there is no point talking on nonsense.

That's not true and you know it. If you have a child and someone kills your child. Would you accept the killer being set free if he paid you a large sum of money? So cut the BS.

Speaking for myself, I'm not one who thinks that a recognition from turkey would heal anything since it will most definately be insincere and without remorse of any kind and in my opinion if they are forced to make an apology (as I don't expect them to do it willingly on their own, but will only do so and reluctatly if a third part convinces turkey that it would be in their best interest to do it), they will hate us more than they hate us now.

I also know for a fact that some Armenians don't want anything from the turks in either land or money as no amount of land or money can come even clost to undoing the damage they have caused. All they want is for turkey to just say a simple sorry for what their predecessors did to our people, but it seems that even a simple sorry is too much to ask, because as I said before, the turks don't think they did anything wrong in killing off one and a half million people as they think it was their right to do so and don't see why they should apologise for something they feel they had a right to do. In some ways they do admit to doing it, but since the world at large frowns on such acts, they have come up with all kinds of bogus reasons and justifications even blaming the victims in order to absolve themselves of any guilt.

Sure I want them to pay money, but it's not just for the sake of getting money or profit as some people might think or pretend. It's so that we can rebuild our country that they destroyed. Actually, I'm willing not to take a single penny from them in reperations if they return the lands and proprty that they stole and pay a third party to repair everything they destroyed.

Germany paid 60 billion, but besides the 60 billion, they also got all their property and money back too, plus they didn't have to pay any taxes in Germany for I don't know how long and I wouldn't be surprised if that's still going on today. Plus the swiss banks, back wages for slave labor etc etc.

From what I think you're getting at, it seems to me that you would like to calculate something like, since the jews got 60 billion for 6 million dead (I won't argue the 6 million figure here although the jews themselves say it was something like 4.5 million), then Armenians should only ask for 10.5 billion for 1.5 million dead, which you would consider to be fair. However, you're not calculating all the stolen or destroyed property and there hardly any destruction of jewish property, but the destruction of Armenian property was quite extensive.