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just look at Israel to see Devolutionary is possible
Btw did you read Prof. Papazians article?
Btw did you read Prof. Papazians article?
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A little patience, I am reading it
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Yep I read it, it is 7,9 and 18th elements of the article I find myself close to in terms of our stance.
First of all one needs certainty about Damat Ferid Pasha and Atatürk said these qoutes, they should be verified from Turkish archieves. Second of all when it is said it is our word against yours, we do not mean Atatürk or elites of the republic. We directly mean the grandfathers of today that live in eastern Turkey and what they have to say about Armenian gangs taking out Turkish people.The Turkish government has confessed in earlier times. Prime Minister Damat Ferid Pasha placed the blame squarely on the Young Turk Party and held war crime trials in which the chief perpetrators were condemned to death.
PrinceAbdul Mecid, the heir apparent to the Ottoman Throne, said during an interview: "I refer to those awful massacres. They are the greatest stain that has ever disgraced our nation and race. They were entirely the work of Talat and Enver. I heard some days before they began that they were intended. I went to Istanbul and insisted on seeing Enver. I asked him if it was true and they intended to recommence the massacres that had been our shame and disgrace under Abdul Hamid. The only reply I could get from his was: 'It is decided. It is the program.'"
Mustafa Kemal Pasha (later surnamed "Ataturk") said in a 1926 interview with a Swiss reporter that "these holdovers from the Young Turkey [sic.] Party should be made to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred. . . "
So what does he mean? For ethnic warfare, one needs equal numbers, equal weapon technology and equal rights? Not to mention Armenian gangs were armed as Russian and French soldiers with short-distance one-shot rifles like wise the technology of Ottoman Troop's rifle technology.When the armed government of 25 million people turns on and attempts to exterminate an unarmed minority of three million old men, women, and children, it is hardly an "intercommunal struggle," "an ethnic feud," or "civil war"; it is nothing more or less than genocide. The Turkish government had a bureaucracy, tax money, an army, irregular troops, the local police, and special killing squads to carry out its mission. What did the Armenians have?
If it was a feud between Turks and Armenians, what explains the genocide carried out by Turkey against the Christian Assyrians at the same time?
Furthermore, Turkish armies invaded the fledging Armenian Republic in the Caucasus inhabited by indigenous Armenians in order to wipe out not only Armenians in the Ottoman Empire but also Armenians who lived elsewhere.
Armenians all over Anatolia, not just on the eastern war front, were wiped out. The cities of Yozgad, Sivas, Caeserea, Hadjin, Marash, Adana, and Ankara -- just to name a few -- are hardly in the east. One needs but to look at a map of Turkey to see this. Turkish apologists depend on American ignorance of geography to make such foolish claims
Russia's cruelty towards Armenians or Armenia itself, does not bind us and does not change the fact that many a Armenians from Russia itself and from inside the empire joined Russian forces and took out Turks and Turkish villages. Thanks to revolution however Russia retreated...Both the Turks and the Russians offered the Armenians autonomy. Neither promise could be trusted. Truth is the first victim of war. Neither the Turks nor the Russians had a history of granting their subjects freedom. The last tsar, Nicholas II, would not even share power with his own Russian people, which prompted the Russian revolution during World War I. Russia even forbade Armenian refugees, who had managed to flee the Genocide, from returning to their ancestral lands, which the Russian armies had overrun during the war. Prince Lobanov-Rostovsky, foreign minister of Russia in 1895, summed up Russia's traditional stance by saying, "Yes, Russia wants Armenia, but without the Armenians."Comment
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So 3 out of 19 denialists arguments you kinda agree with it took you 20 minutes to read I suppose we can agree if you read it 2nd time you might find at least one more to make it 4 ot of 19 that makes you about 8 or9% denialist Wow! what a coincedince thats just about how much Turkish blood in you !"All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)Comment
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That is what is advocated in the west with help of some think tanks like Huntington. However, it is far from the truth.Originally posted by Joseph
The truth involves a gradual shift in demographics and economics from the "west" to the "rest". This process also is related to the shift in political and military powers. As one could imagine, the tendencies are not very peaceful, particularly as long as the west keeps on refusing to implement concessions.
Moreover, it is hard to predict the possible alliances. In a sense, those depend upon the circumstances that would exist at a specific point in time. In that regard, alliance of the West with Russia might be possible, but I dont think that one could include China (and rest of Asia including Pakistan and India, Africa, and South America) into such equation.Comment
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Originally posted by ScythianVizier
Like Huntington writes and I mentioned, China is going to sit this one out. They'll wait and see what happens; they want to emerge as the world's superpower so their attitude is to see what arises from the ashes of WWIII. India will have it's hands full with Pakistan and hopefully it will not involve nuclear weapons. South America and sub-Saharan Africa will be a non-entity WWIII.General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”Comment
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WW3 has ended.
WW3 has ended last year.Originally posted by Joseph
US got the lesson in Iraq and has learnt how theory and practice are different.US will not invade iran.
THe new world order established by,Sanghay Pact,Latin America,EU,Islam World,...
US is not the only super power now.
Stupid Bush caused Antiamericanism to make top all over the world.
May be you can get ready for WW4.But before it
Make love not war in order to increase population of Armenians.Comment
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So 3 out of 19 denialists arguments you kinda agree with it took you 20 minutes to read I suppose we can agree if you read it 2nd time you might find at least one more to make it 4 ot of 19 that makes you about 8 or9% denialist Wow! what a coincedince thats just about how much Turkish blood in you !
Comment
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On the contrary, the WWIII is in its earliest stages; the Iraq war is just the beginning. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict has not blown up yet and the situation with Iran will continue to deteriorate.Originally posted by NickyMartinGeneral Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”Comment
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Back to the thread topic...
Agreed completely, WW3 is just beginning. I have some confidence in the theory that Russia, Iran and China may be allied against who knows?, though details such as China and Russia putting pressure on Irans nucear program appear to contradict this... (it may be all bark-no bite).Originally posted by Joseph
But back to the topic of this thread. Will Armenia get it's lands back from Turkey, when and how?
Well, certainly a good question!
I believe under the right circumstances it is only a matter of time before Armenia liberates land (notice I don't say "gets it's lands" as the query originally stated) occupied by Turkey. Under the current circumstances, with the Diaspora unfocused, not mobilized, and unwilling to make concessions all the way down to an individual basis, it cannot happen.
Will we get all of the Armenian Homeland back? I doubt it, and I don't think it should be expected by others. Furthermore, if you ask 10 Armenians what they consider the Armenian Homeland, I could just about guarantee you will get 10 different answers if you look at the details. Assuming the Treaty of Sevres could be activated in any way, would it even include all of the Armenian Homeland? I don't think so. I took a look at the map recently, it didn't even include Kharpert (Elizig)! But I think if we are willing to work for it, and willing to accept certain concessions, then it is possible.
When will it happen? There is not a right or wrong answer for that. It could happen soon, it could happen later, it could never happen at all. It depends on our dedication as a nation to such an outcome. It seems that not enough effort has been made by the leaders of our nation to come to an agreement on what our demands are, so that it is clearly defined and any Armenian understands it, in this way our cause is fragmented.
Why haven't we made more of an effort to work with Kurds in coming to an agreement on how a map of Kurdistan / Armenia / Turkey would look if those lands were to be liberated? Why aren't we alligned with Kurds in that respect? wouldn't it be to our benefit? (Notice how Turks use this lack of understanding btw Kurds and Armenians when they say things like "How could it ever happen, Kurds and Armenians both claim the same land"? - well they have identified something we need to work on - so why don't we?)
And finally, I'll point out another area of improvement addressed by Turks. Why aren't we putting a stronger aspect on legal recognition through world courts and the like. This should compliment already strong political recognition of the Armenian Genocide, not be non-existant.
In closing I should add that IF under all these circumstances Armenia was to re-gain any significant amount of the Armenian Homeland back, BUT the MAJOR economic/political/social issues haven't been addressed by the Armenian nation, the problems that are widely unforeseen currently, could be staggering.
I'm interested to hear comments / opposing views on this...Comment
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Cooperation between various countries/factions could make such thing possible.Comment
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