Do you really believe that one nice day Armenia will get its lands back from Turke

[Kharpert]

How so? If various countries/factions cooperate who's going to get the land in the end?

[Hovik]

How so? If various countries/factions cooperate who's going to get the land in the end?

I think he's saying that since multiple nations have claims to the land occupied by Turkey (Kurds, Armenians) that if the various countried cooperate they will have higher chances of getting the land they have claims to. He's probably building on my comment that the national elements need to clearly define what they claim and make sure it doesn't overlap so that if the land is liberated the nations with claims to specific land, will gain that specific land.

Am I close Kerkuk?

[kerkuk_kurdista]

I think he's saying that since multiple nations have claims to the land occupied by Turkey (Kurds, Armenians) that if the various countried cooperate they will have higher chances of getting the land they have claims to. He's probably building on my comment that the national elements need to clearly define what they claim and make sure it doesn't overlap so that if the land is liberated the nations with claims to specific land, will gain that specific land.

Am I close Kerkuk?

Took the words right out of my mouth....
If we ever get land back from Turkish occupation then we can solve things out civilised. I heard that claimed Armenian lands go as far as Van, well the area is mixed with Kurds and Armenians and also some Turks.
But I am sure we can do things in a good way, not the Turkish way: It is mine, if you don't like it, you can have a bullet in your brain.
By the way, Greeks, Armenians and Kurds would have an awesome alliance

[Kharpert]

Don't you think that Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds would start fighting over the lands they conquered?

[Joseph]

Don't you think that Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds would start fighting over the lands they conquered?

Probably not so much the Greeks and Armenians but the Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, would probably have overlapping claims. At this point, there isn't much meaningful political interaction between these possible allies with maybe the exception of Greece and Armenia.

[Joseph]

How so? If various countries/factions cooperate who's going to get the land in the end?

It's an interesting dream for sure but a dream nonetheless. I just want Armenia to continue to get stronger and for a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq too emerge (which will happen soon enough and the Kurds deserve). Otherwise, we'll see what happens. Realistically, the only way Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks are going to get their homelands back is after WWIII; and if that happens, everybody in region will be in a world of sh*t anyway, there might not be anything to return to.

[Vogelgrippe]

It's an interesting dream for sure but a dream nonetheless. I just want Armenia to continue to get stronger and for a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq too emerge (which will happen soon enough and the Kurds deserve). Otherwise, we'll see what happens. Realistically, the only way Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks are going to get their homelands back is after WWIII; and if that happens, everybody in region will be in a world of sh*t anyway, there might not be anything to return to.

Joseph, thanks for making the only meaningful comment on this thread. Conflicts which are called 'World Wars' tend to claim the lives of tens of millions of people. It is so sad and pathetic (and also funny if you are in a cynical mood) that these chauvinists even have hopes from the aftermath of a phenomenon called Third World War. As you said, everybody in the region will be in a world of xxxx, and the world would look probably look like an open-air morgue.

Something must make them so certain about their survival capabilities during and after such an unimaginable catastrophe, that they base their calculations upon its results. Can it be, that we have aliens among us?

[Joseph]

Joseph, thanks for making the only meaningful comment on this thread. Conflicts which are called 'World Wars' tend to claim the lives of tens of millions of people. It is so sad and pathetic (and also funny if you are in a cynical mood) that these chauvinists even have hopes from the aftermath of a phenomenon called Third World War. As you said, everybody in the region will be in a world of xxxx, and the world would look probably look like an open-air morgue.

Something must make them so certain about their survival capabilities during and after such an unimaginable catastrophe, that they base their calculations upon its results. Can it be, that we have aliens among us?

You're welcome. I believe Kharpert was also alluding to the same thing. The most I can hope for is that my people stay out of any future fight and remain vigilant.

In any event, I believe that things are going to get much worse in the Middle East and the ripples will become very big waves and eventually wash over Europe and also into North Africa. I really do forsee a big war on the horizon. Everyone is in this state of denial (because they hope for the best which is understandable) as if it's not happening. A big war with Islam vs. Christianity is on the way and it will start out low-impact (has already started for the matter) and will continue to snowball.

[Hovik]

The point of the cooperation between the national elements concered, and the subsequent pact / manifesto(s) between those concerned would be explicitly to prevent such infighting. In the stage it is now, with Armenians demanding land reparations, and Kurds demanding a state, both on the same land, there is definitely the danger of such a problem. Thats why it's important to heighten the dialogue and cooperation between all involved.

Some believe it's a dream, and I respect that, but by that standard, EVERYTHING is a dream until it's right in front of you as reality. I'd prefer the words "it hasn't happened yet" OR "it could happen" to "it's a dream" personally.

One day I witnessed a conversation where two Armenian brothers, Van and Matos were discussing Ararat, and Van was saying how Ararat will be in Armenia once again. Matos asked "you're confident of that?" and Van replied "it's only a matter of time, it's our national symbol, and Turks taking it from us was nothing more than a slap in the face, they have taken 90% of our homeland, we must at the very least have our national symbol back". Matos replied, "it's a nice dream but nothing more". I could tell Van was disappointed to hear this coming from his sibling, but he replied this: "Faith is what has saved our nation, not just spiritual faith, but faith in our nation. Jews used to have a saying that was expressed during national holidays - "Next year in Israel" (or Jerusalem or something like that). This expression was used during some 2000 years in exile, but as of a few decades back, they didn't need to say it anymore - it happened. Imagine if after 90 years into their 2000 year exile, the young generations stopped using it, because it was a mere dream..." Matos was a little more stoic at this point, and I was getting a little uncomfortable, but it wasn't like I was evesdropping so I continued listening. Van finished the conversation saying "It would be nice if we could find a way that any Armenian who hampers the national faith by saying negative, counterproductive things like "its just a dream", "it'll never happen" should have his/her name written on a list. And if or when, for example, Ararat is reclaimed by Armenia, that list should be disributed to the proper Armenian authorities who will in turn not allow those people on the list to in any way enjoy our victory (not be allowed to go to Ararat)."

Needless to say it was an interesting conversation, but I think we might draw some points from it individually, I personally learned not to use the phrase "it's a dream" so liberally...

Hovik

[Joseph]

The point of the cooperation between the national elements concered, and the subsequent pact / manifesto(s) between those concerned would be explicitly to prevent such infighting. In the stage it is now, with Armenians demanding land reparations, and Kurds demanding a state, both on the same land, there is definitely the danger of such a problem. Thats why it's important to heighten the dialogue and cooperation between all involved.

Some believe it's a dream, and I respect that, but by that standard, EVERYTHING is a dream until it's right in front of you as reality. I'd prefer the words "it hasn't happened yet" OR "it could happen" to "it's a dream" personally.

One day I witnessed a conversation where two Armenian brothers, Van and Matos were discussing Ararat, and Van was saying how Ararat will be in Armenia once again. Matos asked "you're confident of that?" and Van replied "it's only a matter of time, it's our national symbol, and Turks taking it from us was nothing more than a slap in the face, they have taken 90% of our homeland, we must at the very least have our national symbol back". Matos replied, "it's a nice dream but nothing more". I could tell Van was disappointed to hear this coming from his sibling, but he replied this: "Faith is what has saved our nation, not just spiritual faith, but faith in our nation. Jews used to have a saying that was expressed during national holidays - "Next year in Israel" (or Jerusalem or something like that). This expression was used during some 2000 years in exile, but as of a few decades back, they didn't need to say it anymore - it happened. Imagine if after 90 years into their 2000 year exile, the young generations stopped using it, because it was a mere dream..." Matos was a little more stoic at this point, and I was getting a little uncomfortable, but it wasn't like I was evesdropping so I continued listening. Van finished the conversation saying "It would be nice if we could find a way that any Armenian who hampers the national faith by saying negative, counterproductive things like "its just a dream", "it'll never happen" should have his/her name written on a list. And if or when, for example, Ararat is reclaimed by Armenia, that list should be disributed to the proper Armenian authorities who will in turn not allow those people on the list to in any way enjoy our victory (not be allowed to go to Ararat)."

Needless to say it was an interesting conversation, but I think we might draw some points from it individually, I personally learned not to use the phrase "it's a dream" so liberally...

Hovik

Hovik,

I'd like what you've written and in my heart I know it's a admirable dream. I think about it all the time myself. It may take many generations, patience and hardwork but the dream will remain alive within our people and nothing in this world is impossible and I'll never say it can't happen and I also feel it is something to aspire to for us as a people.

If I sounded pessimistic before, it's that being a realist, I don't see it happening anytime soon and I wouldn't want to get our homeland back through massive bloodshed or a counter-genocide. Ideally I do agree with you; Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, and Kurds must find ways to work together... for me this is a dream that can be realized much sooner and will help us in the long run.

But like I wrote before, I see danger in the immediate horizon and Armenians are going to have to weather the storm; we must try to stay out of the coming conflict so we can come out alive and intact. The whole region around us, not just the Caucasus, but also the Balkans, Middle East, and North Africa is going to explode and I do think it will happen in our lifetime.