Ataturk's Sun Theory

[elendil]

No Hitite I was just pointing out numeourus lies that was told th Turkish people and the edge of the "needed" lies touch the AG,so if one minimizes this lie and that lie it opens the door to more lies.
Today Turkey has qualities of a multinational soceity that cannot be denied and its admirable (given the great genepool)in terms of sane people you are in the majority (you two)most of my rage is against that 7-8 percent and your goverment for external political reasons that go back to 19th century try to appease them.Us Armenians were once accused of seeing special treatment back then so they eliminated us but it seems like the accusers took their place and I'm not too sure of their alliances.Who does it benefit keeping Armenians and Turks enemys?
Why hasnt this issue been solved for 91 years?

The question is adressed to Hitite but I believe he would forgive me for answering first.

The issue has not be solved because we did not adress the issue. I dont blame Turkey much about this, being a young republic and being weak both in terms of intellectual level and militarily, Turkey probably saw no reason to deal with the problem as the affects of the problem were minor to Turkey. Not to mention the world was much different back then. People did not give a damn about other nations. The Diaspora Armenians being driven from their homes, naturally became bitter and formed lobbies in order to keep their identity and to keep away from assimilation. In their anger and fury though powerless practically, they were able to form a nation under exile which would be effective in future. Turkey, not being very far-sighted at those times could not forsee this new vawe of democratic power. Meanwhile, Turkey was trying to convert its old people of old times to new people of new times. Fighting communism, fighting capitalism, fighting extereme nationalism and figthing seperatism, fighting fundemantalism and praising religion Turkey was at least to say confused about how to deal with population it had. The clash of ideologies and economic politics were harsh sometimes even bloody. That left many darkprints in history of republic itself, but that is another issue. Simply to say Turkey had too much in hand and no solid reason to deal with Armenian issue. Forth came Asala then, taking out our diplomats, to make its sound to the world, though a terrorist organization it reached its aim, world once again began to discuss Armenian issue. But Turkey was nowhere near ready, extreme nationalism was at its peak and the only issue they had an agreement with left-winged people was that Armenian issue was a grand-play to sabotate Turkey for the benefit of Imperialist powers. You know the issues of military intervention so I wont go into detail. Simply once again Turkey has chosen not to hear the claims of Armenians, not that people had come to a level to debate or argue about this. After Asala Armenian's popularity in Turkey decreased to such level, it was used as an insult in fights, when a grandma got angry with her grandson, you could hear shouting "Ermeni, Yezidi". Anyway as Turkey got more democratic, and Diaspora Armenians got stronger to influence other state's parliaments Turkey slowly realized that it wil have to deal with the issue for the sake of show to the rest of the world if not the issue itself. Therefore in the wake of EU membership talks Turkey is acting as if it is trying to argue about this.
(will continue)

[elendil]

Such is not the case. To people who look into issue pragmatically, it becomes cyrstal clear that Turkey as a state, has no solid reason to solve the issue. Trade with Armenia goes well despite the fact that the border between the countries is closed. Using Georgia and Russia Turkey exports its goods to Armenia with a slight difference at the price. Having a direct contact with Armenia would endanger the relation with Azerbaijan who are our cousins and who will be our future oil provider. Armenia early being a part of Russia is under heavy Russian influence and defense which directly clashes with pro-American doctrine of Turkey. Looking at our past and future I do not forsee a truce between states of Armenia and Turkey for a few decades.

But Turkish people and Armenian people talk, trade, interact with each other. Therefore there is a connection between two entities, it is the people that will solve the problem, not our states. That is why I think conferences should be done about issues in Universities. Diaspora Armenians should come to Turkey and see it for themselves, not read from idiotically sided news sites.
Turks themselves should not be blindly nationalist about Armenians.
Simply people should talk.

[Joseph]

Naturally, it would be exteremly ignorant to say Turkey's version of history is accurate. But one could say it is safe. As Turkey moves forward and as time flows by, the implications of past actions (idiotic and wise) will lose its affect on present, Turkish history will be closer to being accurate. That is why Armenian conferences, Kurdish conferences should be held as more time passes by. I have to admit Turkey is acting very wisely in this ( Seldom I praise my country) As Turkey geets stronger many a more taboos will be broken.

PS.I just saw your post, sorry for the delay

Elendil,

I tend to agree with your points. I don't see a overall solution forthcoming but the barriers are certainly breaking down...slowly but surely. Last summer when I was in Turkey I had several interesting experiences regarding Armenian/Turkish history, relations, genocide, etc.

Many of my wife's Turkish friends, who she grew up with and went to school with ,have become very curious about the Armenian Genocide and are actually making an effort to see beyond the goverment propaganda, they asked a lot of questions and are really trying to understand the issue (imagine this, after years of it never being an issue of discusssion). Of course, these ladies are part of the elite in society and do not reflect the general public (the general public certainly has many more important issues to deal with and don't really care) but it was still encouraging.

[hitite]

Elendil. I agree with nearly every point of your analysis except for the fact that I see Turkey and Armenia interacting more and more. I have started seeing Armenian tradesmen come to our region to buy Turkish products (contrary to a lot of idiots on this forum who say stuff like "worthless xxxx made in Turkey, we dont need it, we dont need to trade with Turkey" BS these guys are actually very eager to buy our products). There seems to be a huge difference between Armenians proper and Diasporans. This difference could well bring truce to a certain degree 'within' a few decades inshallah. Armenians proper do not cling to AG recognition like a religion, at least as much as the diaspora since they have more immediate survival issues to deal with. Thats why I have hopes for a truce regardless of AG recognition on Turkeys behalf upon which the atmosphere between two nations IMHO will change drastically. After that I think the healing will begin and maybe a natural recognition of the people in Turkey first thus the government may take place.

Superpower recognition is never going to work and I really feel sorry for Armenians and Turks working on this political agenda rather than chanelling their efforts to a more individual level where the real solution lies.

[Joseph]

From The Economist

The ties that divide

Jun 15th 2006 | KARS
From The Economist print edition

Locals dream of reopening the frontier between Turkey and Armenia


NAIF ALIBEYOGLU, mayor of Kars, a town bordering Armenia, has a dream. He pictures a party of Turkish officials embracing their Armenian counterparts in the middle of an ancient bridge over the river that divides their countries. Reduced by war and neglect to a pair of greyish stone stumps on opposite banks of the river, its condition is an apt symbol for relations between the two countries. The bridge, part of the historic site of Ani (see article), would in theory be easy to reconstruct. Fixing the broader relationship between Turkey and Armenia promises to be a great deal harder.

Turkey was among the first countries to recognise Armenia when it emerged from the Soviet Union's wreckage in 1991. But bitter arguments over the fate of the Ottoman Armenians—did the mass killings of 1915 constitute genocide?—together with lingering border disputes have stood in the way of formal ties. The estrangement deepened in 1993 when Turkey sealed its land frontier with Armenia (while still allowing direct air travel). The Turks acted after Armenian forces had occupied a chunk of Azerbaijan in a war over the enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh.



Years of secret talks between Turkish and Armenian diplomats—the latest of which were held in Vienna in March— have failed to ease tensions. And this is despite vigorous backing for renewed ties from both America and the European Union, which Turkey is seeking to join.

Mr Alibeyoglu, who is from Turkey's ruling AK party, says the people of Kars are paying the price. With average annual incomes of only $823, Kars is among the country's poorest and most neglected provinces. Yet before the cold war Kars was among the young republic's most progressive places. It is vividly evoked in “Snow”, a novel by Turkey's most famous writer, Orhan Pamuk. Locals would attend the theatre and ballet and dine on caviar and champagne. Such tastes were inherited from former Russian occupiers, whose traces can still be detected in the grandeur of its Tsarist-era architecture.

Mr Alibeyoglu, whose penchant for wine and naughty sculptures would have gone unnoticed in those days, now sees a chance to reverse his city's decline, but only if Turkey unconditionally reopens its borders. By doing this, Turkey would regain some moral high ground, as well as securing access to strategic markets in Central Asia and beyond. Kars could even become a regional hub in the Caucasus, especially if a rail link to Armenia's capital, Yerevan, were restored. Trade volumes between the two countries, now averaging a measly $100m a year, almost all of it conducted via Georgia, should soar.

There is more. As many as 200,000 members of the Armenian diaspora return to their homeland every year. Many would like to cross the border into Turkey in order to visit Armenian archaeological sites. The tourist trade could be worth millions of dollars. “They would also meet Turks and realise they aren't quite as evil as they imagined,” adds Kaan Soyak, co-chairman of the Turkish-Armenian Business Development Council.

But how to break the diplomatic deadlock? Mr Alibeyoglu's answer is to take matters into his own hands. In 2000 he drove to the Armenian town of Gyumri, where he appeared on television with his fellow mayor and appealed for peace. This autumn, Mr Alibeyoglu will host a festival that features, for a second time, performers from Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. The Armenians will have to make a tortuous journey via the Turkish cities of Trabzon and Istanbul. But the mayor hopes that, one day soon, their journey will be much quicker.

[Joseph]

Such is not the case. To people who look into issue pragmatically, it becomes cyrstal clear that Turkey as a state, has no solid reason to solve the issue. Trade with Armenia goes well despite the fact that the border between the countries is closed. Using Georgia and Russia Turkey exports its goods to Armenia with a slight difference at the price. Having a direct contact with Armenia would endanger the relation with Azerbaijan who are our cousins and who will be our future oil provider. Armenia early being a part of Russia is under heavy Russian influence and defense which directly clashes with pro-American doctrine of Turkey. Looking at our past and future I do not forsee a truce between states of Armenia and Turkey for a few decades.

But Turkish people and Armenian people talk, trade, interact with each other. Therefore there is a connection between two entities, it is the people that will solve the problem, not our states. That is why I think conferences should be done about issues in Universities. Diaspora Armenians should come to Turkey and see it for themselves, not read from idiotically sided news sites.
Turks themselves should not be blindly nationalist about Armenians.
Simply people should talk.

Not that I support this line of thinking but I can see why Turkey has no inclination to resolve their problems with Armenians. Doing so would piss of the Azeris, anger the ulusalci (sp?), some of the conservative military elite, and ultra-nationalists and this could exacerbate some domestic problems. I would argue that opening the border would help with the EU negotiations but in reality my feeling is that not much can help Turkey get in at this point.

[hitite]

Joseph, this is exactly the sort of thing I want to see happening. I went to Kars and Ardahan several years ago in February, when the wheather was -35 -40. Russian/Armenian architechture was the first thing that struck me as different from other Turkish cities.

[Joseph]

Elendil. I agree with nearly every point of your analysis except for the fact that I see Turkey and Armenia interacting more and more. I have started seeing Armenian tradesmen come to our region to buy Turkish products (contrary to a lot of idiots on this forum who say stuff like "worthless xxxx made in Turkey, we dont need it, we dont need to trade with Turkey" BS these guys are actually very eager to buy our products). There seems to be a huge difference between Armenians proper and Diasporans. This difference could well bring truce to a certain degree 'within' a few decades inshallah. Armenians proper do not cling to AG recognition like a religion, at least as much as the diaspora since they have more immediate survival issues to deal with. Thats why I have hopes for a truce regardless of AG recognition on Turkeys behalf upon which the atmosphere between two nations IMHO will change drastically. After that I think the healing will begin and maybe a natural recognition of the people in Turkey first thus the government may take place.

Superpower recognition is never going to work and I really feel sorry for Armenians and Turks working on this political agenda rather than chanelling their efforts to a more individual level where the real solution lies.

No sure if many Turks realize this but one of the biggest differences between Diasporan and Armenian citizens is that most Diasporans come from areas spread over many areas of Anatolia (Marash, Kharpert, Kayseri, Diyarbekir, etc) and are generally alive today through pure luck while most of their families were wiped out. Armenians in Armenia generally come from Van, Kars, Tbilisi, Baku, Artsakh and congregated in Armenia during and after WWI. They are relatives of people who generally practiced self defense against overwhelming odds. There are certainly some regional differences amongst Armenians that have led to cultural differences. People in the diaspora (any diaspora) tend to be slightly more nationalistic and perhaps Armenians in Armenia (and especially those in Artsakh) are very confident in their survival, their forebearers have seen and experienced much worse than they have.

Regarding relations between the two states, the individual level will be inadequete. If the issues between the states remain open-ended and unresolved, the problems will contiune to fester and no matter how many individuals from both side have postive contact, it will be just a drop in the ocean. Even India and Pakistan have diplomatic ties.

[Gavur]

gineres chi hasgitsa Turkeren yev hayeren kharnivaz abur ireres!

[Gavur]

You speak Greeek very badly!