Turkey destroying it's support again

[Joseph]

We had the first written alphabet, we invented democracy, we felled the mighty armies of Persia when they tried to conquer us, our philosophers are required reading at every credible university from London to Tokyo to New York, our literature to is required for all to read, the tactics of our military greats are still studied at every military academy, need I really go into some of our countless other things such as artistic acomplishments?

Agree.

[Gondorian]

Thanks Elendil and Joseph, I am no nationalist, however I refuse to be a revisionist, especially where my ancestors are concerned and I have immense pride in what my ancestors accomplished and it reinforces my patriotism (Patriotism and Nationalism are two different things).

[Vogelgrippe]

Thanks Elendil and Joseph, I am no nationalist, however I refuse to be a revisionist, especially where my ancestors are concerned and I have immense pride in what my ancestors accomplished and it reinforces my patriotism (Patriotism and Nationalism are two different things).

Nobody is denying the Greek/Hellenic contribution to Western civilization as we know it. The only thing that I (and probably some other forum members) are trying to say is this: The very contribution we are talking about causes among many Greeks a high level of arrogance, self-righteousness, and a solid 'we never did anything bad to anyone' attitude. After all, a nation whose ancestors contributed so greatly to humanity should not be capable of being chauvenistic, and slaying other people in the course of history etc. etc....

If you say you remained aloof from these side effects, I take your word for it, and congratulate you (no irony or sarcasm intended)

[Joseph]

Nobody is denying the Greek/Hellenic contribution to Western civilization as we know it. The only thing that I (and probably some other forum members) are trying to say is this: The very contribution we are talking about causes among many Greeks a high level of arrogance, self-righteousness, and a solid 'we never did anything bad to anyone' attitude. After all, a nation whose ancestors contributed so greatly to humanity should not be capable of being chauvenistic, and slaying other people in the course of history etc. etc....

If you say you remained aloof from these side effects, I take your word for it, and congratulate you (no irony or sarcasm intended)

Vogelgrippe,

I do agree with some of what you are saying; Armenians, Turks, and Greeks are all arrogant to some degree (some more than others) but again we have to look at the root cause of such arrogance. The Greek arrogance is mostly based on positives such as their contributions to arts, humanities, intellectual pusuits, government, etc. Despite facing occupation under peoples such as the Romans up until the Turks, they have retained their language, indetity, culture, through many hardships. In a way, they have every right to be proud.

What are root of Turkish arrogance? (it seems to me they are based upon conquest, martial pursuits, etc)

No offense ( I sincerely mean this too) but a Turk calling a Greek arrogant is like a pot calling the kettle "black".

I think it was Elendil who used the term "national myths" is another post and I think he brought up a valuable point.

[Vogelgrippe]

Vogelgrippe,

I do agree with some of what you are saying; Armenians, Turks, and Greeks are all arrogant to some degree (some more than others) but again we have to look at the root cause of such arrogance. The Greek arrogance is mostly based on positives such as their contributions to arts, humanities, intellectual pusuits, government, etc. Despite facing occupation under peoples such as the Romans up until the Turks, they have retained their language, indetity, culture, through many hardships. In a way, they have every right to be proud.

What are root of Turkish arrogance? (it seems to me they are based upon conquest, martial pursuits, etc)

No offense ( I sincerely mean this too) but a Turk calling a Greek arrogant is like a pot calling the kettle "black".

I think it was Elendil who used the term "national myths" is another post and I think he brought up a valuable point.

Joseph,

It is up to to take my word for it, but the root of Turkish arrogance is mostly ignorance, and lack of proper education. Therefore, the level of arrogance among Turks decreases as their level of education increases. This is, of course, with the exception of Turkish politicians ('well' educated), who are willing to exploit the ignorance of the masses by pumping nationalistic arrogance.

What makes Greek, and to a lesser extent, Armenian, arrogance more dangerous is that its intensity does not decrease with education, at least not significantly. That is mainly because the 'national myth' is propagated at all social and educational levels, and it is so hard to overcome. Or maybe because, the 'perfect Greek' myth is better constructed than the 'perfect Turk' myth, so relatively educated Turks realize easier what kind of bullxxxx they are dealing with.

I am certainly not saying that all Turks with college / postgraduate degree are super-enlightened individuals who are capable of evaluating their history with a perfect sense of self criticism I only observe that they tend to be more mature/self critical as compared to their well-educated Greek/Armenian counterparts, in a relative and general sense.

[imported_Melik]

I am certainly not saying that all Turks with college / postgraduate degree are super-enlightened individuals who are capable of evaluating their history with a perfect sense of self criticism I only observe that they tend to be more mature/self critical as compared to their well-educated Greek/Armenian counterparts, in a relative and general sense.

Yes, let's not generalize please. For every erudite and self-critical Zaman Daily columnist, there's a nasty and mocking Sedat Laçiner.

[Joseph]

My prediction is tha the AKP will be out of power in the next elections and one of the center-right parties will re-emerge. Relations between the Turkey, the U.S. and Israel will be back to normal (at least at the dipolmatic, commercial and military level) even though the Turkish population has a lot of angst regarding their allies.

Boy was I wrong!

[1.5 million]

Boy was I wrong!

Don't deny that I told you so - if not here then in numerous posts elsewhere - mostly when warning/mocking secular Turkish deniers the likelyhood of rising radical Islamiscim in their nation - and I see this continuing and growing. First - the various secular Turkish political parties are one big (money grubbing) joke (and the Islamiscists - funded by Saudi Arabia - have actually taken on addressing some of the social ills of the poor), secondly - its the Turkish (horrid) education system rising up to bite them in the ass (with perpetuation of falsified history such as the AG a factor...) and third - we are witnessing an upsurge of islamic fundementalism/fanatascism everywhere - in part as it is a backlash/response to the US/West (colonial arrogance and misdeeds) and also due to the great motivational thorn that is Israel (and related) and just due to the continuing power of (supersticious) religion (ignorance). Turkey - as its rejection of Islam was incomplete - remains highly suseptible to being sucked under by the current fanatical islamic wave - its just the way of things.

[Joseph]

Don't deny that I told you so - if not here then in numerous posts elsewhere - mostly when warning/mocking secular Turkish deniers the likelyhood of rising radical Islamiscim in their nation - and I see this continuing and growing. First - the various secular Turkish political parties are one big (money grubbing) joke (and the Islamiscists - funded by Saudi Arabia - have actually taken on addressing some of the social ills of the poor), secondly - its the Turkish (horrid) education system rising up to bite them in the ass (with perpetuation of falsified history such as the AG a factor...) and third - we are witnessing an upsurge of islamic fundementalism/fanatascism everywhere - in part as it is a backlash/response to the US/West (colonial arrogance and misdeeds) and also due to the great motivational thorn that is Israel (and related) and just due to the continuing power of (supersticious) religion (ignorance). Turkey - as its rejection of Islam was incomplete - remains highly suseptible to being sucked under by the current fanatical islamic wave - its just the way of things.

Thanks for reminding me 1.5 hahaha!

Actually, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think emphasis should be put on the CHP/Kemalist status quo and how they offer no new ideas, incentives, and seem to be the party for the elite, so-called "white turks" whereas the AKP has improved the economy and actually liberalized Turkey somewhat despite the military, deep-state, and economically and culturally elite that has basically ruled for the last 80 years. Those outside of Istanbul, Ankara, and Izmir seemed to have appreciated the AKP, even the Kurds who suprisingly voted en masse for AKP instead of DTP.

They're still not getting into the EU though...

[Joseph]

TRY: TURKEY.
By John Feffer

http://exchange.ips-dc.org/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/393.php?nid=&id=&pnt=393&lb=hmpg1

Tuesday, September 11, 2007

Name the country in the Middle East that is most anti-American. Egypt?

Palestine? Lebanon? Try again. Try instead our key NATO ally, the third
largest recipient of U.S. military aid, and one of the countries in
line for membership in the European Union.

According to a new poll from the Project on International Policy
Attitudes, 64% of Turks believe that the United States poses the
greatest threat to their own country's future. That compares to 48% for
the Palestinian territories, 39% for Egypt, and 38% for Lebanon. And
sentiment within Turkey has only gotten more anti-American over the
last five years.

There are three possible reasons for this seemingly bizarre disconnect
between Turkey's traditional alliance with the United States and its
high anti-Americanism. There's the easy answer, the wrong answer,
and the interesting answer.

Let's start with the easy answer: the Iraq War. The Turkish government
was not enthusiastic about the U.S. invasion of Iraq. In fact,
the Islamist government in Ankara refused the U.S. request to use
Turkey as a staging area for the invasion. Subsequent events bore
out Turkey's fears. The Kurdish areas of the north grew stronger and
more independent as a result of Saddam's fall, and Kurdish separatists
were emboldened to launch more cross-border attacks into Turkey. Many
Turks believe that the United States is on the side of the Kurdish
independence movement. This is a radical turnaround from the 1990s,
when most Turks had nothing but positive things to say about the
Clinton administration (belatedly) coming to the aid of Bosnians and
Kosovo Albanians, both predominantly Moslem peoples. And Turks also
believe the CIA helped deliver the Kurdish separatist leader Abdullah
Ocalan into Turkey's hands in 1999. The Iraq invasion wiped out all
that good will.

So, big surprise, the United States is still suffering the consequences
of its ill-advised invasion of Iraq.

Now, let's look at the wrong answer: the Turks are becoming
increasingly fundamentalist in their Islamic beliefs and that's
why they hate Americans. In fact, as I point out in Postcard
from ... Istanbul , Turkish support for the moderate Islamist
Justice and Development Party (AKP) has nothing to do with Islamic
fundamentalism. The AKP supports European integration, market
liberalization, and key civil reforms. As a fascinating report from the
European Stability Initiative puts it, the AKP is a party of "Islamic
Calvinists." Party support comes from traditionally conservative
central Anatolia, where a new business class has emerged that has
replaced the trading ideology of the bazaar with the production
ideology of the bourgeoisie. These are global firms, like a jeans
manufacturer in the newly energized city of Kayseri that sends its
management teams to U.S. and UK discos to "read the minds of teenagers"
in order to compete with suppliers elsewhere in the world.

Since Islamic Calvinists should get along with American Calvinists
in the global marketplace, that can't be the answer. But here's the
interesting part.

According to the PIPA poll, Turks not only dislike U.S. policy, they
don't much like the American model either. Over 80% of Turks don't
like American ideas of democracy and ways of doing business. Nearly
70% dislike American culture (TV, movies, music).

Part of the answer, then, lies in the fact that Turkey is no
longer a bazaar and the United States is no longer a Calvinist
nation. We've been pushing our democratic ideas like an insistent
carpet salesman. Our way of doing business is far from Calvinist,
for it is no longer about prudence and restraint, but more about
speculation and conspicuous consumption. And while our Puritan
forebears would probably agree with Turkey's Islamists about the
need to rein in our more exhibitionist tendencies, the current
cultural czars in Hollywood can't help but offend the religiously
more conservative overseas just as they do at home.

So, perhaps it's not so bizarre that Turkey has become anti-American.

Perhaps the more relevant question is: what took them so long?