Turkey destroying it's support again

[elendil]

This reminded me of this poem:

Written for the 90th Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide:


By now we should have finished grieving.
By now we should have found some peace.
By now there should have been atonement and the pain slightly eased.
By now witnesses are almost gone.
And the lies about our bones believed.
By now they thought we would be forgotten.
and our blood dried to dust and blown.
By now they thought the smoke and fire
would be either greened or stone.
By now they thought our stolen children would have all turned into Turks.
By now they thought the aid money
sent back to America would do its work
in changing truth to lies:
that we were never here alive.
By now they thought the last survivors
and their children would be in graves.
They didn't count on our children's children even angrier, and more outraged.

By Diana Der-Hovanessian

I know this poem and as far as I know it is favored among Armenians so no comment not to hurt feeilings.

[elendil]

Interesting logic sold one
Karabagh is ocuppied wheres western Armenia is not ?
keep walking this line of reasoning it will surely bring destruction of your house of cards.

This kind of reasoning keeps the house of cards up but anyways.. Sold One? Twisted one, you should have been in medivial ages...

[phantom]

I am no greywolf.
We do not dream of world domination man, we can not look after our 70 million people properly as it is what domination are you talking about. We are trying to expand our economical and cultural influence therefore we will not bow to EU or America for the rest of our existence.

Time will not help you to forget, but time will stop the rest of the world community(civilian foundations) from caring to intevene. Anyways if I say more people of the forum will fall on me, you get what I mean. A major obstacle to our efforts? Armenian genocide issue can not be brought up against Turkey legally in any kind of deal though you will see many a politicans saying Turkey must, Turkey should. At the end the relations are between us and others, not Armenia.

Having a starving population never stopped Turks from dreaming about further conquests. As for forgetting, nobody is going to forget anything. The Armenian Genocide is going to be standard curriculum in schoolbooks around the world, not just California, Michigan, New Jersey, Massachusetts, France, Argentina, Uruguay, etc. This is going to happen, and you are young enough that you will see it unfold during your lifetime. My generation and the one after me are even more obsessed with this matter than our parents and grandparents were. I can only imagine what we and our children will accomplish over the next several decades.

As for Azerbaijan, Karabagh has been Armenian land ever since there were Armenians. I don't understand how one can invade his own land. Moreover, an invasion means that Armenians started the war; as we all know, that was not the case. They may have won the war, but they certainly were not the ones who sent the first bombs flying into hospitals, schools, apartments and churches; the credit for that goes to your "cousins".

As a side matter, one wonders how you manage to twist the facts in your mind to reconcile your view of Northern Cyprus with your distorted view of Karabagh.

[elendil]

Having a starving population never stopped Turks from dreaming about further conquests. As for forgetting, nobody is going to forget anything. The Armenian Genocide is going to be standard curriculum in schoolbooks around the world, not just California, Michigan, New Jersey, Massachusetts, France, Argentina, Uruguay, etc. This is going to happen, and you are young enough that you will see it unfold during your lifetime. My generation and the one after me are even more obsessed with this matter than our parents and grandparents were. I can only imagine what we and our children will accomplish over the next several decades.

As for Azerbaijan, Karabagh has been Armenian land ever since there were Armenians. I don't understand how one can invade his own land. Moreover, an invasion means that Armenians started the war; as we all know, that was not the case. They may have won the war, but they certainly were not the ones who sent the first bombs flying into hospitals, schools, apartments and churches; the credit for that goes to your "cousins".

As a side matter, one wonders how you manage to twist the facts in your mind to reconcile your view of Northern Cyprus with your distorted view of Karabagh.

Do you read what I write really? Who says you will forget, the important thing is the if world will cease to intervene. What Armenians feel or remember about the issue does not really matter much to us. Let it go to history books that also does not matter much. The idea is not making the world say it was not genocide, the idea is to show the will until the issue becomes mere historical debate issue between two nations.

Azeris started the war and lost it. But who is right or wrong is not the matter here on Turkey's behalf. The land is invaded and that is claimed by UN as far as I know

I do not twist the facts, never did, I see the things as they are. Northeren Cyprus, was there not an election about unifying the island a year ago? What happened there? But if you say you invaded the island we did since Greeks took out the Turks living there. The world pressed on with isolation and economic sanctions though... Do you therefore accept Turkey's move in blockade as a natural act of justice regarding an invaded neighbour? I really doubt it...

[Joseph]

Before everyone jumps on Elendil's back let's remember a couple of things:

1. He is being honest with us and his opinions are probably on the mark regarding the realpolitik of the day. I beleive that what he is saying is not whether something is right or wrong but that states always act in their own selfish interests and you cannot deny that every state does this. It's unfortunate that some states are stronger than others but that's life. He is merely stating what is in Turkey's interest. We me abhor what he has to say but he is not far from the mark.

2. He is not denying the Armenian Genocide, in fact from reading Elendil's posts, past and present, I have yet to see denial and indeed think he acknowledges the Armenian Genocide (you can correct me if I'm wrong Elendil) but in the big scheme of things he is stating that the issue will definitley fade in importance for Turkey which it probably will but not in the eyes of Armenians.

[Joseph]

I agree with all expect Samuel Huntigton theory. Oh not the part that Islamic
and Christian nations will clash. By all means in a small or large scale they will. But that will be in fact the part of a serious economic war between EU, Russia, America, China. While I am sorry to say this muslim nations perhaps expect Ottoman times have never, ever been a serious power
and with this mentality of life, it is likely they never will. Perhaps in future Turkey and Iran only... Anyways muslim nations are not serious compared to western powers, what you call clash will be an invasion. But who will be with who at this invasion, that is the question I believe.

Kurdish question, well what can I say we are better of 1990s but that does not necessarily mean the problem is over as you point out. We will see what happens, I can not have a clear prediction about this, there are just so many elements involved.

I agree with you on the scale of the conflict(s) and on your view regarding the invasion. The conflict(s) might be moderate in scale but will burn out of control for some time I beleive. China is sitting back waiting to see what happens and the conflicts will make a big impression on regional countries and lead to chaos for decades perhaps. The rift between Dar-al Islam and Dar al Harb will no doubt grow deeper. The U.S. has already stoked the fire.

[Joseph]

U.S. Jewish leaders who met with the Turkish foreign minister disagreed sharply over Turkey’s relations with Hamas.
Participants in Wednesday’s meeting with Abdullah Gul said it was unusually tense, with Jewish leaders questioning Turkey’s insistence on defying the Western boycott of the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority government.

Gul argued that such ties were useful to Israel, citing Turkey’s recent, unsuccessful attempt to intervene with Hamas to free a captive Israeli soldier.

Currently led by an Islamist-based party, Turkey relies on U.S. Jewish lobbying to maintain its profile in Washington.

Representatives of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, United Jewish Communities, Jewish Council for Public Affairs, B’nai B’rith International, Anti-Defamation League and American Jewish Committee took part in the meeting.

My prediction is tha the AKP will be out of power in the next elections and one of the center-right parties will re-emerge. Relations between the Turkey, the U.S. and Israel will be back to normal (at least at the dipolmatic, commercial and military level) even though the Turkish population has a lot of angst regarding their allies.

[elendil]

My prediction is tha the AKP will be out of power in the next elections and one of the center-right parties will re-emerge. Relations between the Turkey, the U.S. and Israel will be back to normal (at least at the dipolmatic, commercial and military level) even though the Turkish population has a lot of angst regarding their allies.

I see a MHP,CHP and AKP formed parliament though I have no idea what kind of an alliance can come to life from these. Probably AKP will rule alone again. Turkish population forgets about all when they go to sleep do not worry about our anger. We, Turks do not move much generally unless the gun is pointed directly at us.

I agree with you on the scale of the conflict(s) and on your view regarding the invasion. The conflict(s) might be moderate in scale but will burn out of control for some time I beleive. China is sitting back waiting to see what happens and the conflicts will make a big impression on regional countries and lead to chaos for decades perhaps. The rift between Dar-al Islam and Dar al Harb will no doubt grow deeper. The U.S. has already stoked the fire.

U.S by attacking Iraq took a wise step. Dont get it wrong it is a inhumane, people killing war. But the brilliance in the strategy is undeniable. Kurds of Iraq are completely pro-American, whose regional govermnent also have the oil as you know. Arabs are killing themselves because of sect issues, they are not attacking U.S soldiers anymore. America is slowly taking over Iraq and mark my words the day America's last soldier leaves Iraq, it will mean the dominion of Iraq belongs to America completely. In future we may see Russia, EU and China begging to America for cheaper oil....

Before everyone jumps on Elendil's back let's remember a couple of things:

1. He is being honest with us and his opinions are probably on the mark regarding the realpolitik of the day. I beleive that what he is saying is not whether something is right or wrong but that states always act in their own selfish interests and you cannot deny that every state does this. It's unfortunate that some states are stronger than others but that's life. He is merely stating what is in Turkey's interest. We me abhor what he has to say but he is not far from the mark.

2. He is not denying the Armenian Genocide, in fact from reading Elendil's posts, past and present, I have yet to see denial and indeed think he acknowledges the Armenian Genocide (you can correct me if I'm wrong Elendil) but in the big scheme of things he is stating that the issue will definitley fade in importance for Turkey which it probably will but not in the eyes of Armenians.

Well, thanks for the understanding. Not every Armenian was calm as you in past but then again it is understandable. As to Armenian genocide, I had discussed it with Maral I believe where the issue boiled down to who started it as the people of the region claim it was Armenian gangs who attacked first. Now it is pretty clear we, took out-massacred the Armenians of the Empire, missing it, is impossible. However I can not leave my people's testimony aside as false while I accept Armenian's as true.
But let it be genocide in my view for now, still the issue as I said does not benefit us in anyway. I am pretty a calculating man and as I said at the first time I took part in the forum, I dont much care about people who died a century ago. Gavur hated me for saying that, but it is the fact. It is the fact for most Turks also. To risk the integrity of my country, to risk billions of dollars and to risk the identity of Turkishness for the sake of Armenian people
is simply stupid, naive whatever one can call it.
I am not sayin this to hurt Armenians once again because I am asked to.

[Kharpert]

U.S by attacking Iraq took a wise step. Dont get it wrong it is a inhumane, people killing war. But the brilliance in the strategy is undeniable. Kurds of Iraq are completely pro-American, whose regional govermnent also have the oil as you know. Arabs are killing themselves because of sect issues, they are not attacking U.S soldiers anymore. America is slowly taking over Iraq and mark my words the day America's last soldier leaves Iraq, it will mean the dominion of Iraq belongs to America completely. In future we may see Russia, EU and China begging to America for cheaper oil....

The U.S. invading Iraq, putting aside all the inhumanity, was a senseless blunder that was bungled beyond all reason. It has brought America into a serious international crisis as well as permanently destroy George W. Bush's legacy.

The only reason the Kurds are adopting a pro-American attitude is because America is the only power who can guarentee them security. The Americans betrayed the Kurds twice in 1975 and 1991, so there is no love lost between the two states.

Arabs may be killing themselves, but that's not to say Americans aren't CONSTANTLY getting in the crossfire! Currently, 2,561 American soldiers are declared dead. A quick look at the media shows 4 American troops killed in Iraq on June 27, only about 2 weeks back. The U.S. military hasn't seen this kind of stress on its soldiers since the Vietnam War. Even if we put aside the casualities, both military and civilian, American or otherwise, let's take a look at the prohibitive cost. Check out this website. The war in Iraq has costed America about $300,000,000,000 and that number is still rising. Some of the world's greatest economists predict in the end Iraq is going cost over a trillion dollars.

The minute the last American soldier leaves Iraq, it's going to mean civil war. With muslims killing other muslims, there is no way in hell any citizen of Iraq is going to give their allegience to America. If America leaves Iraq, it's going to lead to fighting for decades to come, and in the meanwhile it will spawn terrorism and anti-American sentiments like a cesspool. As if it's not enough that all of Iraq hates America, all of Iran hates America, too. And as neighbors of Iraq, Iran is going to fight for control of all the shi'ites in Iraq, making things all the worse for America.

China will never have to beg America for oil. After a while, America will lose it's power in the Middle East, because the Arab nations will realize that they don't need to sell to the United States anymore, they can sell to the next largest consumer: China!

[Gavur]

I dont think US will leave Iraq until the oil runs out.