Turkey destroying it's support again

[Gavur]

Theres a huge difference between criticizm and insult that the world has yet to understand."Taking" criticizm as insult is an agressive act and should be punished.

[Tongue]

As to our blockade to Armenia, we should continue to press on. Not for genocide recogniton policy but for Karabağ and Azerbaijan problem.

And the reality is that Armenia has gotten used to the blockade to the point where its economy has been growing non-stop for the past couple of years. It did hurt in the beginning, but not anymore. After a while, people will find alternative ways to do trade.. all Armenia needed was time to find itself and how to deal with this unusual situation. However, I still think Turkey should mind its own business and not stick its not into Armenia/Azerbaijan relations.. which I believe is just a cover up for the real reason of the blockade: dropping the genocide charges and by doing so, kill the possibility of Armenia ever claiming its lands back from Turkey. As for Karabagh, I don't get it.. it's own people want an independent state, it's not going to be part of Armenia... so what is the problem again?

[Joseph]

Sorry to say but Tongue is right. Our benefits clash in every aspect of life with Armenia, just as Armenia's benefits clash with us. Turkey will never recognize Armenian Genocide (regardless of the level of its power I believe) and Armenia will never give up. But Turkey has one strong ally on its side. Not America, not Israel, not Russia. Time... A century after this Armenian genocide claims and the debate about it will probably lose the momentum it posseses today.

As to our blockade to Armenia, we should continue to press on. Not for genocide recogniton policy but for Karaba? and Azerbaijan problem. This problem hurts our future oil pipeline projects, also technically speaking, acts as a buffer zone which cuts our connection to Asia. Opening borders with Armenia will bring us a few million dollars in a year , but the projects we can build with our Asiatic cousins are immense compared to this little trade potential. I am not a greywolf, I am not Turanist but it is crystal clear that Turkey as a state must look to its interest and that interest is not opening
border without end of occupation of Azerbaijan.

At least your honest in your opinion, I'll give you that.

I do agree that at this very moment Armenian and Turkish interests run counter to each other and unfortunately in that part of the world, mainly when dealing with Muslim nations, everything revolves around a zero-sum game; always has, always will, that's just the mentality.

Do I believe Turkey will ever recognize the Armenian Genocide? Not likely although there will be a growing awareness of it among intellectuals and the liberal element (that which exists in Turkey) and there is certainly a growing awareness outside of Turkey. A century will soon pass since the occurence of the Genocide but I certainly see no mellowing of the issue on the Armenian side and the fact remains that it will poison relations between Turkey and Armenia evermore, not that I think Turkey cares or it even affects them except when it comes to trying to protect their image abroad.

You may disagree but my thinking is that time is both an ally and enemy of both nations. Armenia will continue to struggle but will develop with or without open borders. While open borders and trade would help the process I think Armenia is resigned to the fact that the borders will remain closed for some time. They are not willing to hand over Artsakh to the clutches of Azerbaijan (which like Nakhichevan, would mean the eradication of the Armenian population there) and a true peace agreement between both sides is not forthcoming. The spector of war will always remain over Armenia's head but they will remain vigilant and inevitably stay close to Russia. I'm pretty certain that there are powerful circles in Turkey that would love to flatten Armenia, so be it. I don't think Russia is going to lose interest in the region anytime soon and they certainly remain a force to be reckoned with.

Turkey will continue on its way either toward the EU or not. It will move on. Armenia will remain somewhat of a thorn in it's side but Turkey will have much bigger and difficult issues to deal with in the near future.

What I'm eluding to is a two-headed monster on the horizon that will determine the fate of not only Turkey but perhaps all the countries in the region making all of our current issues pale in comparison.

1. The contiued rise of Kurdish Nationalism that will inflame the region
2. The inevitable conflict between Islam and the West.

The die has already been cast. (Gee, thanks W)

As much as everybody is clamoring around regarding the Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations' theory, they are merely wearing blinders and treading water. As much as they disagree with the stark reality they are merely singing lullabys to help them get to sleep at night; the BIG CONFLICT is coming whether we like it or not. It scares me personally but I won't deny its inevitability. There will be a massive conflict between Islam and the West and we'll just have to see how things shake out after it occurs.

[Tongue]

Turkey will never recognize Armenian Genocide (regardless of the level of its power I believe) and Armenia will never give up. But Turkey has one strong ally on its side. Not America, not Israel, not Russia. Time... A century after this Armenian genocide claims and the debate about it will probably lose the momentum it posseses today.

This reminded me of this poem:

Written for the 90th Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide:


By now we should have finished grieving.
By now we should have found some peace.
By now there should have been atonement and the pain slightly eased.
By now witnesses are almost gone.
And the lies about our bones believed.
By now they thought we would be forgotten.
and our blood dried to dust and blown.
By now they thought the smoke and fire
would be either greened or stone.
By now they thought our stolen children would have all turned into Turks.
By now they thought the aid money
sent back to America would do its work
in changing truth to lies:
that we were never here alive.
By now they thought the last survivors
and their children would be in graves.
They didn't count on our children's children even angrier, and more outraged.

By Diana Der-Hovanessian

[Joseph]

At least your honest in your opinion, I'll give you that.

I do agree that at this very moment Armenian and Turkish interests run counter to each other and unfortunately in that part of the world, mainly when dealing with Muslim nations, everything revolves around a zero-sum game; always has, always will, that's just the mentality.

Do I believe Turkey will ever recognize the Armenian Genocide? Not likely although there will be a growing awareness of it among intellectuals and the liberal element (that which exists in Turkey) and there is certainly a growing awareness outside of Turkey. A century will soon pass since the occurence of the Genocide but I certainly see no mellowing of the issue on the Armenian side and the fact remains that it will poison relations between Turkey and Armenia evermore, not that I think Turkey cares or it even affects them except when it comes to trying to protect their image abroad.

You may disagree but my thinking is that time is both an ally and enemy of both nations. Armenia will continue to struggle but will develop with or without open borders. While open borders and trade would help the process I think Armenia is resigned to the fact that the borders will remain closed for some time. They are not willing to hand over Artsakh to the clutches of Azerbaijan (which like Nakhichevan, would mean the eradication of the Armenian population there) and a true peace agreement between both sides is not forthcoming. The spector of war will always remain over Armenia's head but they will remain vigilant and inevitably stay close to Russia. I'm pretty certain that there are powerful circles in Turkey that would love to flatten Armenia, so be it. I don't think Russia is going to lose interest in the region anytime soon and they certainly remain a force to be reckoned with.

Turkey will continue on its way either toward the EU or not. It will move on. Armenia will remain somewhat of a thorn in it's side but Turkey will have much bigger and difficult issues to deal with in the near future.

What I'm eluding to is a two-headed monster on the horizon that will determine the fate of not only Turkey but perhaps all the countries in the region making all of our current issues pale in comparison.

1. The contiued rise of Kurdish Nationalism that will inflame the region
2. The inevitable conflict between Islam and the West.

The die has already been cast. (Gee, thanks W)

As much as everybody is clamoring around regarding the Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations' theory, they are merely wearing blinders and treading water. As much as they disagree with the stark reality they are merely singing lullabys to help them get to sleep at night; the BIG CONFLICT is coming whether we like it or not. It scares me personally but I won't deny its inevitability. There will be a massive conflict between Islam and the West and we'll just have to see how things shake out after it occurs.

Before anyone jumps all over my back I suggest you actually read the Samuel Huntington book. He may be a smug, elitist, snob but he's not a fool.

[phantom]

Sorry to say but Tongue is right. Our benefits clash in every aspect of life with Armenia, just as Armenia's benefits clash with us. Turkey will never recognize Armenian Genocide (regardless of the level of its power I believe) and Armenia will never give up. But Turkey has one strong ally on its side. Not America, not Israel, not Russia. Time... A century after this Armenian genocide claims and the debate about it will probably lose the momentum it posseses today.

As to our blockade to Armenia, we should continue to press on. Not for genocide recogniton policy but for Karabağ and Azerbaijan problem. This problem hurts our future oil pipeline projects, also technically speaking, acts as a buffer zone which cuts our connection to Asia. Opening borders with Armenia will bring us a few million dollars in a year , but the projects we can build with our Asiatic cousins are immense compared to this little trade potential. I am not a greywolf, I am not Turanist but it is crystal clear that Turkey as a state must look to its interest and that interest is not opening
border without end of occupation of Azerbaijan.

Listen up wolfy, what hurts your future oil pipeline projects is not just Karabagh but Armenia and Karabagh. Turkey uses Karabagh as a convenient excuse for the economic blockade. The goal has always been the elimination of the Armenian nation from that area so that Turkey is free to expand eastward. The Armenians have always been a thorn in the Turkish side, and will always be until Turkey stops dreaming about world domination.

By the way, the one thing you really got wrong was your opinion that time is on Turkey's side. If you knew anything about our history, our patience, and our tenacity, you would have learned that lesson by now. Your ancestors thought that the world would have forgotten about what they did to our people after just a few years. They could never have imagined that two generations later, the issue is hotter than ever before and remains a major obstacle to Turkey's global efforts.

[Gavur]

U.S. Jewish-Turkish meeting tense

U.S. Jewish leaders who met with the Turkish foreign minister disagreed sharply over Turkey’s relations with Hamas.
Participants in Wednesday’s meeting with Abdullah Gul said it was unusually tense, with Jewish leaders questioning Turkey’s insistence on defying the Western boycott of the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority government.

Gul argued that such ties were useful to Israel, citing Turkey’s recent, unsuccessful attempt to intervene with Hamas to free a captive Israeli soldier.

Currently led by an Islamist-based party, Turkey relies on U.S. Jewish lobbying to maintain its profile in Washington.

Representatives of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, United Jewish Communities, Jewish Council for Public Affairs, B’nai B’rith International, Anti-Defamation League and American Jewish Committee took part in the meeting.

[elendil]

And the reality is that Armenia has gotten used to the blockade to the point where its economy has been growing non-stop for the past couple of years. It did hurt in the beginning, but not anymore. After a while, people will find alternative ways to do trade.. all Armenia needed was time to find itself and how to deal with this unusual situation. However, I still think Turkey should mind its own business and not stick its not into Armenia/Azerbaijan relations.. which I believe is just a cover up for the real reason of the blockade: dropping the genocide charges and by doing so, kill the possibility of Armenia ever claiming its lands back from Turkey. As for Karabagh, I don't get it.. it's own people want an independent state, it's not going to be part of Armenia... so what is the problem again?

Ofcourse you have got used to it. People always find ways. Besides the goods of Turkey get to Armenia after being sold to Georgia with a slight difference at price. Hurting you is not the main point you see, but not hurting our Azeri cousins is. And I want to point out Armenia's asking for genocide recognition is really not very important. When we say drop your recognition policy, we may as well ask for Yerevan from Armenia. Armenia as a state can not sue Turkey no, such an action will be percieved as enmity through international community. But the exiles, Diaspora I mean, may well go to court
if Turkey recognizes genocide. I am not an expert on law but I believe this is how it will go.
As to Karabağ, it is a part of Azerbaijan's invaded land and therefore it has a legal claim. Perhaps it will gain independence perhaps not. But we stand with Azerbaijan in this.

[elendil]

At least your honest in your opinion, I'll give you that.

I do agree that at this very moment Armenian and Turkish interests run counter to each other and unfortunately in that part of the world, mainly when dealing with Muslim nations, everything revolves around a zero-sum game; always has, always will, that's just the mentality.

Do I believe Turkey will ever recognize the Armenian Genocide? Not likely although there will be a growing awareness of it among intellectuals and the liberal element (that which exists in Turkey) and there is certainly a growing awareness outside of Turkey. A century will soon pass since the occurence of the Genocide but I certainly see no mellowing of the issue on the Armenian side and the fact remains that it will poison relations between Turkey and Armenia evermore, not that I think Turkey cares or it even affects them except when it comes to trying to protect their image abroad.

You may disagree but my thinking is that time is both an ally and enemy of both nations. Armenia will continue to struggle but will develop with or without open borders. While open borders and trade would help the process I think Armenia is resigned to the fact that the borders will remain closed for some time. They are not willing to hand over Artsakh to the clutches of Azerbaijan (which like Nakhichevan, would mean the eradication of the Armenian population there) and a true peace agreement between both sides is not forthcoming. The spector of war will always remain over Armenia's head but they will remain vigilant and inevitably stay close to Russia. I'm pretty certain that there are powerful circles in Turkey that would love to flatten Armenia, so be it. I don't think Russia is going to lose interest in the region anytime soon and they certainly remain a force to be reckoned with.

Turkey will continue on its way either toward the EU or not. It will move on. Armenia will remain somewhat of a thorn in it's side but Turkey will have much bigger and difficult issues to deal with in the near future.

What I'm eluding to is a two-headed monster on the horizon that will determine the fate of not only Turkey but perhaps all the countries in the region making all of our current issues pale in comparison.

1. The contiued rise of Kurdish Nationalism that will inflame the region
2. The inevitable conflict between Islam and the West.

The die has already been cast. (Gee, thanks W)

As much as everybody is clamoring around regarding the Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations' theory, they are merely wearing blinders and treading water. As much as they disagree with the stark reality they are merely singing lullabys to help them get to sleep at night; the BIG CONFLICT is coming whether we like it or not. It scares me personally but I won't deny its inevitability. There will be a massive conflict between Islam and the West and we'll just have to see how things shake out after it occurs.

I agree with all expect Samuel Huntigton theory. Oh not the part that Islamic
and Christian nations will clash. By all means in a small or large scale they will. But that will be in fact the part of a serious economic war between EU, Russia, America, China. While I am sorry to say this muslim nations perhaps expect Ottoman times have never, ever been a serious power
and with this mentality of life, it is likely they never will. Perhaps in future Turkey and Iran only... Anyways muslim nations are not serious compared to western powers, what you call clash will be an invasion. But who will be with who at this invasion, that is the question I believe.

Kurdish question, well what can I say we are better of 1990s but that does not necessarily mean the problem is over as you point out. We will see what happens, I can not have a clear prediction about this, there are just so many elements involved.

[elendil]

Listen up wolfy, what hurts your future oil pipeline projects is not just Karabagh but Armenia and Karabagh. Turkey uses Karabagh as a convenient excuse for the economic blockade. The goal has always been the elimination of the Armenian nation from that area so that Turkey is free to expand eastward. The Armenians have always been a thorn in the Turkish side, and will always be until Turkey stops dreaming about world domination.

By the way, the one thing you really got wrong was your opinion that time is on Turkey's side. If you knew anything about our history, our patience, and our tenacity, you would have learned that lesson by now. Your ancestors thought that the world would have forgotten about what they did to our people after just a few years. They could never have imagined that two generations later, the issue is hotter than ever before and remains a major obstacle to Turkey's global efforts.

I am no greywolf.
We do not dream of world domination man, we can not look after our 70 million people properly as it is what domination are you talking about. We are trying to expand our economical and cultural influence therefore we will not bow to EU or America for the rest of our existence.

Time will not help you to forget, but time will stop the rest of the world community(civilian foundations) from caring to intevene. Anyways if I say more people of the forum will fall on me, you get what I mean. A major obstacle to our efforts? Armenian genocide issue can not be brought up against Turkey legally in any kind of deal though you will see many a politicans saying Turkey must, Turkey should. At the end the relations are between us and others, not Armenia.