Hello I am new here

[phantom]

If we ever meet in real life, then kindly point yourself out to me so I can give you something nice. Or you could choose to be the coward you are here, and remain a phantom.

Lal left because she was so disgusted with the attitudes Armenians displayed towards her on this forum that she feared if she did hang around longer she would loose her sympathy for Armenians in general. I will pm her to ask her to confirm this.

Please don't use me as a pretext to creep her out further with a pm. I'll just take your word for it that she left because of us dirty Armenians.

[Joseph]

I think that Lal brought an interesting and legitimate perspective - even if it was one that I think was lacking in many respects (far too much generalization and application of pre-formed conclusions without specific facts or detailed understanding for instance - even if she had some insightful and noteworthy observations). And anyone who claims that they have nothing to learn - particularly concerning a historical subject such as this one - where no one fully understands every aspect and persepctive - well is showing thier lack of understanding and unwillingness to be open to facts/knowledge - and that is sad - because it is those people who have their pre-set answers for everything and who are unable to process new information and modify their knowledge and opinions accordingly - who will keep us in the impass we are in today. Furthermore it is all too easy - and hopelessly sad - to form the conclusion - as Lal has - that there is no hope to change anything because of some vast consipiracy theory that the bacteria or such are controlling everything and we are just acting our parts with no ability to alter the predestination of things...sounds like a religion to me Lal...

I agree. I appreciated Lal's contributions and I hope she comes back but she was not ready to even entertain anything that deviated from her hypothesis and indeed became extremely angry when anyone even remotely disagreed with her. She had some good things to say though. Religion has been used to kill for centuries and by all religions but even trying to equate Armenians and Turks on that issue is ludicrous as I think most of us agree.

[lal]

I agree. I appreciated Lal's contributions and I hope she comes back but she was not ready to even entertain anything that deviated from her hypothesis and indeed became extremely angry when anyone even remotely disagreed with her. She had some good things to say though. Religion has been used to kill for centuries and by all religions but even trying to equate Armenians and Turks on that issue is ludicrous as I think most of us agree.

dear Joseph,

ı have a very clear world view. ı am not going to think and behave as my state dictates on me. ı am not going to be proud of my familiy or anybodies religon or nationality.ı will not belong to nothing. ı will always be against wars,racizm,oppressions and aggressions or destroying our planet ,in all levels.ı will defend love,friendship,helping each other and sharing. ı especially love animals and plants.ı wont eat animals.

ı am also not an expert in armenian issue. but ı know one thing, they were here before and they are not here anymore.so simple. not much to think about it.ı am ashamed of this. ı am also ashamed of hrants murder. ı feel dirty.


if ı werent merried ,ı wouldnt hesitate a moment to merry an armenian, even today ı can any time declare myself as an armenian for the sake of justice.
no problem. but ı wont be a christian for sure.

ı want to be the ambassoder of armenians in istanbul ,turkey. ı have sympathy to armenians,because ı consider them as the victoms of arabic imperialist islam just like turks themselves.

May be armenians lived in anatolia for thousands of years . maybe some parts of turkey must belong to armenia etc. but ı cant debate about these. not because ım turkish. but because ım against wars.and ı mean it. to get a land ,you need to make awar. ı simply hate wars. ı hate my country in cyprus ,ı hate bombing kurd. ı hate strong armenian army or turkish army.

ı simply cant understand one thing. why we fight. why dont all kurds and armenians and turks get together and have oil, have great armanian diaspora support in west and anatolian turks power,all together ,and form a culturally respected ,rich and democratic people of anatolian union .

why hatered has so many followers ,why we dont have so many fanatics of peace.

ı want the borders to be opened this way, ı want a sincere peace. ı want to love.ı want to dance in erivan with my friends.

and yes, ı left this site because of crusader. because ,ı really have nothing to talk or learn from him. he is a person against to my world view. ı dont want to debate on power and wars and gaining lands. ım sorry ,ı simply cant do that.

but ı have to learn a lot of armenian history for sure. ı will try to read and uderstand more you.

best regards

lal

[Joseph]

dear Joseph,

ı have a very clear world view. ı am not going to think and behave as my state dictates on me. ı am not going to be proud of my familiy or anybodies religon or nationality.ı will not belong to nothing. ı will always be against wars,racizm,oppressions and aggressions or destroying our planet ,in all levels.ı will defend love,friendship,helping each other and sharing. ı especially love animals and plants.ı wont eat animals.

ı am also not an expert in armenian issue. but ı know one thing, they were here before and they are not here anymore.so simple. not much to think about it.ı am ashamed of this. ı am also ashamed of hrants murder. ı feel dirty.


if ı werent merried ,ı wouldnt hesitate a moment to merry an armenian, even today ı can any time declare myself as an armenian for the sake of justice.
no problem. but ı wont be a christian for sure.

ı want to be the ambassoder of armenians in istanbul ,turkey. ı have sympathy to armenians,because ı consider them as the victoms of arabic imperialist islam just like turks themselves.

May be armenians lived in anatolia for thousands of years . maybe some parts of turkey must belong to armenia etc. but ı cant debate about these. not because ım turkish. but because ım against wars.and ı mean it. to get a land ,you need to make awar. ı simply hate wars. ı hate my country in cyprus ,ı hate bombing kurd. ı hate strong armenian army or turkish army.

ı simply cant understand one thing. why we fight. why dont all kurds and armenians and turks get together and have oil, have great armanian diaspora support in west and anatolian turks power,all together ,and form a culturally respected ,rich and democratic people of anatolian union .

why hatered has so many followers ,why we dont have so many fanatics of peace.

ı want the borders to be opened this way, ı want a sincere peace. ı want to love.ı want to dance in erivan with my friends.

and yes, ı left this site because of crusader. because ,ı really have nothing to talk or learn from him. he is a person against to my world view. ı dont want to debate on power and wars and gaining lands. ım sorry ,ı simply cant do that.

but ı have to learn a lot of armenian history for sure. ı will try to read and uderstand more you.

best regards

lal

Lal,

Thanks for your kind words and contributions here. I mean it sincerely. Stay with us.

To all:

All of us need to take a step back; bell, crusader, hittite, 1.5, phantom, myself, lal, etc and realize we can disagree on some minor issues but should be able to make our arguments maturely and in a concise manner. All of us need to stop making personal attacks as this gets us no where and deviates from the purpose of this site. Thank you.

[imported_crusader1492]

Lal,

Thanks for your kind words and contributions here. I mean it sincerely. Stay with us.

To all:

All of us need to take a step back; bell, crusader, hittite, 1.5, phantom, myself, lal, etc and realize we can disagree on some minor issues but should be able to make our arguments maturely and in a concise manner. All of us need to stop making personal attacks as this gets us no where and deviates from the purpose of this site. Thank you.

Joseph,

I agree that the rhetoric should be toned down here. However, getting back to "moral relativism" - there is definately a party here that holds the majority of blame when it comes to not making arguments in a "mature and concise manner".
I won't name names, but they like to use the words "racsist" a lot

Hopefully, your general and all-inclusive admonishment will do the trick to make things more civil here. However, in the event that it doesn't, I would hope that as a moderator, you would name names and follow up on it with a concrete punishment when personal attacks are used.
I know you are not afraid to do this as I have seen you properly apply punishment to those with offensive behavior in the past.

With that said, I support and commend your moderation.

[imported_crusader1492]

To lal,

What exactly did I write that would make you leave? Was it that I pointed out that part of your behavior can be likend a nationalist?
What in turn have you labeled me?
Perhaps we could hash this out? Maybe not, but honestly lal, you need to grow a thicker skin to non-personal arguments and criticisms. If you can't then maybe it is for the best that you leave.

I will be respectful, but I will not walk on eggshells for you.

[phantom]

Lal,

Welcome to the forum. I, and obviously many of us here, agree with you on so many levels. Personally, I am very glad you are here having conversations with us. It is clear you are sincere in what you say and how you approach the Turkish/Armenian conflict as well as other world conflicts. I was struck by what you said about why we fight. Specifically, you asked

"ı simply cant understand one thing. why we fight. why dont all kurds and armenians and turks get together and have oil, have great armanian diaspora support in west and anatolian turks power,all together ,and form a culturally respected ,rich and democratic people of anatolian union."

Before I share my 2 cents about whether such a union would be good for Turks, Kurds and Armenians, I'd like to opine on whether such a union would serve the purposes of America, Russia, Europe, and Israel. It definitely would not serve the purposes of Russia. It is to Russia's strong advantage to have Armenia as a dependent state, and the way to do that is by maintaining the Turkish threat against Armenia. It probably would not serve the purposes of Europe to have such a strong and unified neighbor with whom to compete (although this is arguable). America and Israel wouldn't like it either, because it would take a great deal of bargaining power away from them. America and Israel prefer to have small, divided, and technologically inept nations controling the natural resources of the middle east, because it makes it easier for America and Israel to negotiate and take over control of those natural resources.

Now, would such a union be good for Turks, Kurds, and Armenians. I guess that all depends. First of all, there is no way it is possible until the Turks and Kurds regain the trust of Armenians. Armenians cannot live in a union where they are a small minority mixed with Turks and Kurds. The memory and effects of what happened the last time that was the case is too strong, and Turkey's continued policy of eliminating the memory and contribution of the Armenian people to the Ottoman Empire is ongoing. Until Turkey changes this policy, neither Armenians nor Armenia will be able to live in such a peaceful and trusting union with the Turks. Now if Turkey were to change, were to adopt a different policy, were to acknowledge, apologize and atone for this crime, were to teach its children that Armenians are not backstabbers, but are natural allies and friends, were to teach its children that Armenians were the most loyal people of the Ottoman Empire until they were abused, were to teach its children that Armenians are docile people that contribute meaningfully in art, science, technology and culture to every nation to which they belong, were to teach its children that it is wrong to be prejudiced against Armenians or any other minorities, were to teach its children that Turkey will be better by being multicultural, multi-ethnic, and multi-religious, then perhaps after one or two generations of that type of indoctrination, a trusting and honest union between Turkish and Armenian people can have a chance.

From the Armenian side, Armenians in the diaspora must end their prejudice against Turks. Almost every Turk I meet in America has had a bad experience with an Armenian at least once in his life. We Armenians should give every Turk we don't know the benefit of the doubt. If they turn out to be knowing Genocide Deniers, then we can show our contempt and disdain, but we need to stop hating individuals before we even know them. And by the way, a "knowing Genocide Denier" does not include those who just don't know anything, because of ignorance of the topic, which by the way, is the vast majority of the Turkish population.

Just this past weekend, we invited some friends over for lunch. They included my wife's friend, her husband, her sister, and her sister's boyfriend. Well, as it turns out, the sister's boyfriend is Turkish. He is about 7 years younger than me and has only been living in the U.S. for 5 years. Apparently he was told that I am Armenian before coming and expressed his concern to my wife's friend that I might not like him since I am Armenian. As I will note later, he had never met an Armenian in Turkey, thus his impression must have been formed in America. Anyway, as soon as he showed up, I broke into my Turkish, which immediately surprised him. Then I cooked up some eggs with soujouk to add to our otherwise non-middle eastern lunch, and that further surprised him. Then at one point he and I were talking alone and I asked him where his family is from. It turns out they are from a town very close to Adana. I told him that Adana used to have many Armenians. He said that he had never met an Armenian in Adana. He asked me where did they go! Let me tell you it was a surreal moment. This guy was genuinely ignorant. He had no clue, and the way he asked, it was so clear to me that he really didn't know. If I had thought for a second that he was f---ing with me, I would have told him "ananin amina gitdiler, esek oglu esek!" So, I didn't exactly know what to say and the question caught me off gaurd. So I told him that there was a large Armenian population there before WWI, and that after WWI they went to other places. Now I feel that perhaps I should have told him more, and I regret that I didn't. Anyway, my point is that this guy was very nice and seemed to be an open-minded and normal person. He wasn't a murderer, or a Genocide Denier, or a liar, at least not as far as I could tell. He seemed to have the same perspectives on family, food, friendship and morals as me. I think I had far more in common with him than anyone else in the room except for my wife. So, how can I hate him? I can't! And I don't want to. And I don't want my people to hate anyone unless they deserve our scorn.

Anyway, it's a wonderful dream to think about such possibilities as Lal has expressed as her hope. But it will take a massive shift in Turkish policy to make it even possible. And it will also require that the diaspora start thinking about Turks as regular people worthy of the same treatment we give non-Turks.

[bell-the-cat]

. All of us need to stop making personal attacks as this gets us no where and deviates from the purpose of this site. Thank you.

I don't see an overall good purpose to this site.

Sure, it has a positive purpose in parts, such as being a clearing house and archive for articles connected to the Armenian genocide. But it could do that without being a forum. Its forum format precludes it from having a good purpose. It will simply be a platform for the likes of Crusader to grandstand on - even if such individuals don't stick around long, there are always others to take their place (though cesspit-mouthed Hellektor has never been equalled).

The true damage this forum causes is the negative impression it creates for casual visitors regarding Armenian issues. Turkish visitors, for example, will fall into three camps, the curious and casually interested, the informed and sympathetic (such as Lal), and the genocide-deniers. Only the latter group finds something positive here: it gives them a patform to post their propaganda. The rest will just leave disgusted at the responses most Armenians here display towards them: it has happened time after time.

The same will go for most non-Armenians. What are the cliched descriptions about Turks that are given by people who know Turkey only from taking a summer holiday there: "friendly", "welcoming", "honest", and so on. What do you think their equally cliched opinions about Armenians will be after perusing this forum?

It's a good thing that this is not a particularly popular forum, that at least limits the damage done to the public perception of Armenians and Armenian issues.

[lal]

Lal,


.......I told him that Adana used to have many Armenians. He said that he had never met an Armenian in Adana. He asked me where did they go! Let me tell you it was a surreal moment. This guy was genuinely ignorant. He had no clue, and the way he asked, it was so clear to me that he really didn't know. If I had thought for a second that he was f---ing with me, I would have told him "ananin amina gitdiler, esek oglu esek!" So, I didn't exactly know what to say and the question caught me off gaurd.



..........Anyway, it's a wonderful dream to think about such possibilities as Lal has expressed as her hope. But it will take a massive shift in Turkish policy to make it even possible. And it will also require that the diaspora start thinking about Turks as regular people worthy of the same treatment we give non-Turks.

good post,

ı dont think only mount ararat and ani belongs to armenians. all anatolia is armenians home land. also turks owe not only a big apology ,but also must openly declare that our sisters and brothers armenians who contributed great deal in arts,architecture,commerse,army and every civilised sector of life in our past,never deserved such a horrible treatment.and turkey is a much more culturally poor country since armenians left turkey.

ı also agree with the member 1,500 saying that ,ı am over generolising the genocides reasons, by blaming only on religons. but what else can it be? why did this happen?can you please tell me.

ı am not very much hopeful about such a great shift as accepting genocide can happen in turkish state. but we ordinary people must meet each other,try to understand each other and not consider each others as enemies before knowing each other. and ı hope turks would be much more careful about what they write about armenians. because we are not in equal positions.

[Steph]

So I told him that there was a large Armenian population there before WWI, and that after WWI they went to other places. Now I feel that perhaps I should have told him more, and I regret that I didn't.

Phantom, this is very interesting, your reasons for saying what you did were probably for social niceties, no bad thing, but looking back how do you wish you had differed your answer?

I have a few turkish acquaintances, two who I would call friend, they had no knowledge of the Genocide. I chose to make a friendship with N**** and I****** comparing food !, always a good point for discussion, drink and of course, nardi. What I, in my ignorance, thought of as turkish numbers for scoring the dice are, I learnt, actually Arabic.
Once our friendship was born, I felt able to talk about the Genocide and it's denial. Their reactions were nothing like I expected and hopefully they can relate this to their friends.

Do you intend to remain in contact with this friend's boyfriend and perhaps explain where the Armenians from Adana went to ?