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Originally posted by phantom
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Lal,
Welcome to the forum. I, and obviously many of us here, agree with you on so many levels. Personally, I am very glad you are here having conversations with us. It is clear you are sincere in what you say and how you approach the Turkish/Armenian conflict as well as other world conflicts. I was struck by what you said about why we fight. Specifically, you asked
"ı simply cant understand one thing. why we fight. why dont all kurds and armenians and turks get together and have oil, have great armanian diaspora support in west and anatolian turks power,all together ,and form a culturally respected ,rich and democratic people of anatolian union."
Before I share my 2 cents about whether such a union would be good for Turks, Kurds and Armenians, I'd like to opine on whether such a union would serve the purposes of America, Russia, Europe, and Israel. It definitely would not serve the purposes of Russia. It is to Russia's strong advantage to have Armenia as a dependent state, and the way to do that is by maintaining the Turkish threat against Armenia. It probably would not serve the purposes of Europe to have such a strong and unified neighbor with whom to compete (although this is arguable). America and Israel wouldn't like it either, because it would take a great deal of bargaining power away from them. America and Israel prefer to have small, divided, and technologically inept nations controling the natural resources of the middle east, because it makes it easier for America and Israel to negotiate and take over control of those natural resources.
Now, would such a union be good for Turks, Kurds, and Armenians. I guess that all depends. First of all, there is no way it is possible until the Turks and Kurds regain the trust of Armenians. Armenians cannot live in a union where they are a small minority mixed with Turks and Kurds. The memory and effects of what happened the last time that was the case is too strong, and Turkey's continued policy of eliminating the memory and contribution of the Armenian people to the Ottoman Empire is ongoing. Until Turkey changes this policy, neither Armenians nor Armenia will be able to live in such a peaceful and trusting union with the Turks. Now if Turkey were to change, were to adopt a different policy, were to acknowledge, apologize and atone for this crime, were to teach its children that Armenians are not backstabbers, but are natural allies and friends, were to teach its children that Armenians were the most loyal people of the Ottoman Empire until they were abused, were to teach its children that Armenians are docile people that contribute meaningfully in art, science, technology and culture to every nation to which they belong, were to teach its children that it is wrong to be prejudiced against Armenians or any other minorities, were to teach its children that Turkey will be better by being multicultural, multi-ethnic, and multi-religious, then perhaps after one or two generations of that type of indoctrination, a trusting and honest union between Turkish and Armenian people can have a chance.
From the Armenian side, Armenians in the diaspora must end their prejudice against Turks. Almost every Turk I meet in America has had a bad experience with an Armenian at least once in his life. We Armenians should give every Turk we don't know the benefit of the doubt. If they turn out to be knowing Genocide Deniers, then we can show our contempt and disdain, but we need to stop hating individuals before we even know them. And by the way, a "knowing Genocide Denier" does not include those who just don't know anything, because of ignorance of the topic, which by the way, is the vast majority of the Turkish population.
Just this past weekend, we invited some friends over for lunch. They included my wife's friend, her husband, her sister, and her sister's boyfriend. Well, as it turns out, the sister's boyfriend is Turkish. He is about 7 years younger than me and has only been living in the U.S. for 5 years. Apparently he was told that I am Armenian before coming and expressed his concern to my wife's friend that I might not like him since I am Armenian. As I will note later, he had never met an Armenian in Turkey, thus his impression must have been formed in America. Anyway, as soon as he showed up, I broke into my Turkish, which immediately surprised him. Then I cooked up some eggs with soujouk to add to our otherwise non-middle eastern lunch, and that further surprised him. Then at one point he and I were talking alone and I asked him where his family is from. It turns out they are from a town very close to Adana. I told him that Adana used to have many Armenians. He said that he had never met an Armenian in Adana. He asked me where did they go! Let me tell you it was a surreal moment. This guy was genuinely ignorant. He had no clue, and the way he asked, it was so clear to me that he really didn't know. If I had thought for a second that he was f---ing with me, I would have told him "ananin amina gitdiler, esek oglu esek!" So, I didn't exactly know what to say and the question caught me off gaurd. So I told him that there was a large Armenian population there before WWI, and that after WWI they went to other places. Now I feel that perhaps I should have told him more, and I regret that I didn't. Anyway, my point is that this guy was very nice and seemed to be an open-minded and normal person. He wasn't a murderer, or a Genocide Denier, or a liar, at least not as far as I could tell. He seemed to have the same perspectives on family, food, friendship and morals as me. I think I had far more in common with him than anyone else in the room except for my wife. So, how can I hate him? I can't! And I don't want to. And I don't want my people to hate anyone unless they deserve our scorn.
Anyway, it's a wonderful dream to think about such possibilities as Lal has expressed as her hope. But it will take a massive shift in Turkish policy to make it even possible. And it will also require that the diaspora start thinking about Turks as regular people worthy of the same treatment we give non-Turks.
Welcome to the forum. I, and obviously many of us here, agree with you on so many levels. Personally, I am very glad you are here having conversations with us. It is clear you are sincere in what you say and how you approach the Turkish/Armenian conflict as well as other world conflicts. I was struck by what you said about why we fight. Specifically, you asked
"ı simply cant understand one thing. why we fight. why dont all kurds and armenians and turks get together and have oil, have great armanian diaspora support in west and anatolian turks power,all together ,and form a culturally respected ,rich and democratic people of anatolian union."
Before I share my 2 cents about whether such a union would be good for Turks, Kurds and Armenians, I'd like to opine on whether such a union would serve the purposes of America, Russia, Europe, and Israel. It definitely would not serve the purposes of Russia. It is to Russia's strong advantage to have Armenia as a dependent state, and the way to do that is by maintaining the Turkish threat against Armenia. It probably would not serve the purposes of Europe to have such a strong and unified neighbor with whom to compete (although this is arguable). America and Israel wouldn't like it either, because it would take a great deal of bargaining power away from them. America and Israel prefer to have small, divided, and technologically inept nations controling the natural resources of the middle east, because it makes it easier for America and Israel to negotiate and take over control of those natural resources.
Now, would such a union be good for Turks, Kurds, and Armenians. I guess that all depends. First of all, there is no way it is possible until the Turks and Kurds regain the trust of Armenians. Armenians cannot live in a union where they are a small minority mixed with Turks and Kurds. The memory and effects of what happened the last time that was the case is too strong, and Turkey's continued policy of eliminating the memory and contribution of the Armenian people to the Ottoman Empire is ongoing. Until Turkey changes this policy, neither Armenians nor Armenia will be able to live in such a peaceful and trusting union with the Turks. Now if Turkey were to change, were to adopt a different policy, were to acknowledge, apologize and atone for this crime, were to teach its children that Armenians are not backstabbers, but are natural allies and friends, were to teach its children that Armenians were the most loyal people of the Ottoman Empire until they were abused, were to teach its children that Armenians are docile people that contribute meaningfully in art, science, technology and culture to every nation to which they belong, were to teach its children that it is wrong to be prejudiced against Armenians or any other minorities, were to teach its children that Turkey will be better by being multicultural, multi-ethnic, and multi-religious, then perhaps after one or two generations of that type of indoctrination, a trusting and honest union between Turkish and Armenian people can have a chance.
From the Armenian side, Armenians in the diaspora must end their prejudice against Turks. Almost every Turk I meet in America has had a bad experience with an Armenian at least once in his life. We Armenians should give every Turk we don't know the benefit of the doubt. If they turn out to be knowing Genocide Deniers, then we can show our contempt and disdain, but we need to stop hating individuals before we even know them. And by the way, a "knowing Genocide Denier" does not include those who just don't know anything, because of ignorance of the topic, which by the way, is the vast majority of the Turkish population.
Just this past weekend, we invited some friends over for lunch. They included my wife's friend, her husband, her sister, and her sister's boyfriend. Well, as it turns out, the sister's boyfriend is Turkish. He is about 7 years younger than me and has only been living in the U.S. for 5 years. Apparently he was told that I am Armenian before coming and expressed his concern to my wife's friend that I might not like him since I am Armenian. As I will note later, he had never met an Armenian in Turkey, thus his impression must have been formed in America. Anyway, as soon as he showed up, I broke into my Turkish, which immediately surprised him. Then I cooked up some eggs with soujouk to add to our otherwise non-middle eastern lunch, and that further surprised him. Then at one point he and I were talking alone and I asked him where his family is from. It turns out they are from a town very close to Adana. I told him that Adana used to have many Armenians. He said that he had never met an Armenian in Adana. He asked me where did they go! Let me tell you it was a surreal moment. This guy was genuinely ignorant. He had no clue, and the way he asked, it was so clear to me that he really didn't know. If I had thought for a second that he was f---ing with me, I would have told him "ananin amina gitdiler, esek oglu esek!" So, I didn't exactly know what to say and the question caught me off gaurd. So I told him that there was a large Armenian population there before WWI, and that after WWI they went to other places. Now I feel that perhaps I should have told him more, and I regret that I didn't. Anyway, my point is that this guy was very nice and seemed to be an open-minded and normal person. He wasn't a murderer, or a Genocide Denier, or a liar, at least not as far as I could tell. He seemed to have the same perspectives on family, food, friendship and morals as me. I think I had far more in common with him than anyone else in the room except for my wife. So, how can I hate him? I can't! And I don't want to. And I don't want my people to hate anyone unless they deserve our scorn.
Anyway, it's a wonderful dream to think about such possibilities as Lal has expressed as her hope. But it will take a massive shift in Turkish policy to make it even possible. And it will also require that the diaspora start thinking about Turks as regular people worthy of the same treatment we give non-Turks.
)
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