Discussion Thread

[Gavur]

That's a sure sign you are right, lal.

Sure sign that you don't know what your talking about on this issue tinklebell.
Lal is trying to make an argument classifying Armenians into 2 categories 1)either you're with dialogue and where ever it may lead 2)you're against Turks and Turkey.

I'm sorry We in the diaspora are never ever obliged to take a Turkish prescribed position thats limited to either, or or.I don't have to be put to sleep by a pretense of dialogue like you,sorry.

[bell-the-cat]

ım not scared or embarassed even a little if obama calls it a genocide. but ı cant be happy either, because usa is unlike you think, considered a very immoral country here. maybe if lets say,sweeden starts a campaign against turkey about AG ,it might be useful.

That's it exactly. Armenian diaspora activists in America, grown fat on easy pickings from their community, want the pot to start calling the kettle black. Given that the pot considers itself to be spotless, it is a worthless gesture. How many millions of people has America killed over the past few decades. Far more than Turkey during WW1. Over half of the American electorate voted for Bush when his criminal actions were clear to the rest of the world. Almost half still voted Republican in the last election (though the slimy Obama was responsible for some of that). Far more than half were in favour of their country's military adventures when things were going well. They have no guilt, they show no remorse. Maybe if America were to start to apologise for its own substantial crimes, Turkey will start to apologise for its. Americas state-level denial of the Armenian genocide has little to do with Turkey, it is mostly to do with lack of honour amongst American politicians - the same people whose belated recognition of the genocide Armenians seem to think will be so valuable.

[bell-the-cat]

Sure sign that you don't know what your talking about on this issue tinklebell.
Lal is trying to make an argument classifying Armenians into 2 categories 1)either you're with dialogue and where ever it may lead 2)you're against Turks and Turkey.

I'm sorry We in the diaspora are never ever obliged to take a Turkish prescribed position thats limited to either, or or.I don't have to be put to sleep by a pretense of dialogue like you,sorry.

You are acting like the type of person who requires 100% support for their position. If so, why would I want dialogue with you? Why would anyone? Why should anyone care what you think? It is dangerous to write about "Armenian" characteristics" because it too easily descends into generalities, but anyone who knows recent Armenian history will know that the all-or-nothing approach has never got Armenia all, and always got Armenia nothing. Nobody supports Armenia because Armenians (when they are not stabbing each other in the back) always stab their friends rather than their enemies. You hate those who agree with 99% of your position with a greater fervour than those who disagree 100% with you. Maybe it is the influence of Islam.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Okay I know I'm not a mod here or anything, but can we please not use personal insults, we are all here for the same thing, the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, one of the greatest atrocities in history. Fighting with each other wastes energy, why not agree to disagree and so on. United those us who fight for recognition stand, devided we fall.

I'm not saying don't disagree, just lets not go personal with stuff.

[Gavur]

You seem to be under the delusion that I care what you think. Why would I want dialogue with you? Why would anyone? You are the type of person who requires 100% support for for your position. It is dangerous to write about "Armenian" characteristics" because it too easily descends into generalities, but anyone who knows recent Armenian history will know that the all-or-nothing approach has never got Armenia all, and always got Armenia nothing. Nobody supports Armenia because Armenians (when they are not stabbing each other in the back) always stab their friends rather than their enemies. You hate those who agree with 99% of your position with a greater fervour than those who disagree 100% with you. Maybe it is the influence of Islam.

I think you been in Turkey too long,like the Turks you are starting to think you know what it is to be an Armenian.For your information the only reason the Turkish state has come this far is because of the constent world wide pressure .Both the Turks and Armenians must set their goals higher a; always, raise the bar to what it seems unachievable.I don't have another 50 years to wait to hear the Turkish state admit all their and their predessecors guilt in Genocide and Genocide by way of conspritiual denying of Genocide .

[lal]

That's it exactly. Armenian diaspora activists in America, grown fat on easy pickings from their community, want the pot to start calling the kettle black. Given that the pot thinks it is spotless, it is a worthless gesture. How many millions of people has America killed over the past few decades. Far more than Turkey during WW1. Over half of the American electorate voted for Bush when his criminal actions were clear to the rest of the world. Almost half still voted Republican in the last election (though the slimy Obama was responsible for some of that). Far more than half were in favour of their country's military adventures when things were going well. They have no guilt, they show no remorse. Maybe if America were to start to apologise for its own substantial crimes, Turkey will start to apologise for its. Americas state-level denial of the Armenian genocide has little to do with Turkey, it is mostly to do with lack of honour amongst American politicians - the same people whose belated recognition Armenians seem to think will be so valuable.

this is exactly what ım trying to say.

[lal]

...........For your information the only reason the Turkish state has come this far is because of the constent world wide pressure .

ı have two questions.

how far turkish state has come?

and

and what kind of world wide pressure is on turkey?


my answers is, turkish president went to watch a football game in erivan. that far turkey has come. ( nothing about,hrant dinks murder or open the borders , accepting genocide can be a joke??)

and world wide pressure is ,france dont want turkey in eu, so they have an armenian genocide law.and obama recognizes it. so what kind of pressure is this? any ambargos?

if you think turkish state will accept AG, well may be. ı would be very happy. that will mean that turkey suddenly became a democracy like sweeden. ı hope so.


but ı dont want to hurt any armenian . anybody can think anyway they wish. ı personally have no hope about turkish state. so ı prefer diaologs between people. if we start to know each other again, individually turks like me will start to apologise.and some of you will forgive us.and we will slowly normalise and love each other again.

[Sako]

Saco,

you have to respect other peoples opinions.even if they are your enemy, or even if they are wrong.and ım certainly not armenians enemy. people can think differently. little tolarance please!!

I respect your views, you don't respect mine . Or should I say, you don't understand mine. Many, many Turks accept the Genocide but start the recognition process from the end rather then the beginning. No one said you are our enemy, Lal, please. Relax and smell the roses, you don't realise in what tone of voice I'm talking to you. I don't hate the Turks as a matter of fact, I hate those that spoil them, the ones that ruin it for everyone, those that don't care for anyone besides themselves and their Turk brethren.

I said so many things in my post and yet you didn't even have some dignity to reply to what I said like I do, phrase by phrase. I'm working my ass off here to say something, to help you understand what I mean and you just ignore my entire post. I answered your points almost completely there. And don't give me something like, "It's too long" or "I don't have time" because you seem to have time for everything else. Stop gluing to your words and try to understand what I'm saying, I completely understand what your saying, I guarantee you.

ı seperate governments and people. ı dont represent turkeys government. and turkeys government dont represent all turks.there are thousands of people who protest turkish governments politics about many subjects .

Naturally. If you represented the Turkish government, you wouldn't be here right now on this forum.

when people have contact with each other,they can listen and understand each other.our opinions can change. we can grow bigger .because we are humans. we have feelings.ı didnt know nothing about AG until few years ago.ı taught armenians are our natural enemy. because ı only knew asala and karabağ.

Well we know about this our whole lives so why don't you trust us a little bit more then you do now. Growing bigger and all won't happen, not without big leaps. Your method might work if there were less people involved but you forget how many people there are in Turkey. Even if you helped a thousand people realise their past (that's a very big if), your government will have already "helped" 100,000. Your method is not wrong, just slow. Time won't wait for you. We have feelings, your right, that's why we can't wait anymore. Your government is dissing everyone and a step forward won't be a step back. I still wait to hear a Turk come up and say "WE WANT RECOGNITION", end of story. There always has to be a strange method of recognition involved. Recognition is recognition, period. Stop making it complicated.

on the other hand,governments dont have feelings. they always act by realpolitics.so turkish government will not accept AG under normal conditions.

We know that, that's why we aren't going by your approach.

also No country on earth will force turkey to do that.not france ,not america,no country.unless it is to their benefit to create another iran.

Turkey is much worse then Iran right now, believe it or not, there's nothing to create. You underestimate your country. We know who we face though and that's why your beautiful dreams, Lal, remain simply that, dreams. Let's say I agree with you, what's your first step now? To go door to door like a Jehovah witness and persuade people that the Genocide happened? Let's see if you STAY ALIVE for even one day my dear. Your country doesn't allow anything to be done other then drastic steps. You fail to see this. Open your beautiful eyes.

ım not scared or embarassed even a little if obama calls it a genocide. but ı cant be happy either, because usa is unlike you think, considered a very immoral country here. maybe if lets say,sweeden starts a campaign against turkey about AG ,it might be useful.

Honey, any country that says something Turkey doesn't like or can't handle is considered immoral and an evil hell spawn. If Sweden did anything, they would be considered enemies as well. The fact that America is a strange country is always there, especially also the fact that it's a very messed up country. America needs to fall on the right track again, I agree. That has nothing to do with accepting the Armenian Genocide though.

anyways this is enough from me. ı hope like you say turkey accepts AG in our lifetimes.

Actually, I kinda hope you see what I'm saying right now much more. And don't worry, everything will fall into place soon Lal, because there are people that won't sit in the bleachers and simply watch all this happen every day. One day you'll be remembering how we used to have these conversations and simply laugh. Hell, I might be there with you. I'd love to see your country one day.

Well said Saco. Your last two posts to Lal represents what is in the heart many Armenians. As much as Lal is trying I don’t think he/she can understand the gravity of the situation.

She, Edoman jan, Lal is a girl. That dosen't mean she's infrior to us in anyway though, I assure you that Lal. Thanks for pitching in.

Armenian tolerance has limits when dealing with extremist elements of Turkish people and their government. Unfortunately there is only one language that these people understand; Wish things were different but they give us no other choice.

I really wish you were wrong, I REALLY REALLY do but that's just another dream. When you wake up you realise what the truth is and how unrealistic your dream was.

Sure sign that you don't know what your talking about on this issue tinklebell.
Lal is trying to make an argument classifying Armenians into 2 categories 1)either you're with dialogue and where ever it may lead 2)you're against Turks and Turkey.

Quoted for truth but Gavur jan, I think there is more to what she says, a little bit more.

That's it exactly. Armenian diaspora activists in America, grown fat on easy pickings from their community, want the pot to start calling the kettle black. Given that the pot thinks it is spotless, it is a worthless gesture. How many millions of people has America killed over the past few decades. Far more than Turkey during WW1.

You are the strangest cat I have ever met. Is this conversation about America or Armenia and Turkey? If America accepted EVERYTHING she has done in the past, Turkey would still act idiotically. So many countries have set an example or have atleast done something that Turkey could do as well or basically follow in their footsteps. Who are you kidding?

Over half of the American electorate voted for Bush when his criminal actions were clear to the rest of the world. Almost half still voted Republican in the last election (though the slimy Obama was responsible for some of that).

Why slimy, what's your problem?

Far more than half were in favour of their country's military adventures when things were going well. They have no guilt, they show no remorse. Maybe if America were to start to apologise for its own substantial crimes, Turkey will start to apologise for its. Americas state-level denial of the Armenian genocide has little to do with Turkey, it is mostly to do with lack of honour amongst American politicians - the same people whose belated recognition Armenians seem to think will be so valuable.

You forget what impact America has on the world. Retract your claws and listen to what I'm saying. I'm not saying America hasn't got its share of problems but when it wants to recognize the Genocide, why do you stop her???

You are acting like the type of person who requires 100% support for their position. If so, why would I want dialogue with you? Why would anyone? Why should anyone care what you think? It is dangerous to write about "Armenian" characteristics" because it too easily descends into generalities, but anyone who knows recent Armenian history will know that the all-or-nothing approach has never got Armenia all, and always got Armenia nothing. Nobody supports Armenia because Armenians (when they are not stabbing each other in the back) always stab their friends rather than their enemies. You hate those who agree with 99% of your position with a greater fervour than those who disagree 100% with you. Maybe it is the influence of Islam.

Or maybe you just have your claws stuck in your face. Turkey has much, much more to talk about. Armenia has strange sides that I'm not proud of but which country doesn't? And when did Armenia stab it's friends? Turkey is the one that stabbed everyone, I think they've broken a record by now. Yet you try to make Armenia look weak. All this time, we've been having dialogue and now you say, "Why should I have dialogue with you?" Get your head on straight man. Realise what your saying.

my answers is, turkish president went to watch a football game in erivan. that far turkey has come. ( nothing about,hrant dinks murder or open the borders , accepting genocide can be a joke??)

This is all politics you don't seem to understand. Yes it's a step forward but not a HUGE step or anything. Not even a average step. Not now. If this happened a long time back, say 20 years back, maybe it might've been something but now it's simply politics.

and world wide pressure is ,france dont want turkey in eu, so they have an armenian genocide law.and obama recognizes it. so what kind of pressure is this? any ambargos?

And why do you think this has happened? I wouldn't want a country that sends threats and causes problem in the EU either. Any objections? Stop showing sympathy towards Turkey like we don't. Any other country wouldn't act like we do if they were in our position.

but ı dont want to hurt any armenian . anybody can think anyway they wish. ı personally have no hope about turkish state. so ı prefer diaologs between people. if we start to know each other again, individually turks like me will start to apologise.and some of you will forgive us.and we will slowly normalise and love each other again.

In say, a few centuries. If I'm wrong then what is your plan Lal, not everyone thinks like you in Turkey. I'm trying to do something now, something that may have a very big impact but even then if thousands of Turks joined in, which I'm sure they will, your forgetting about the other millions. You are not practical , I'm sorry, Lal, I really am. Dialogue alone will get you and me only to a certain point after which we will have to take grand steps again. It might be too late though. Time is going against us, understand that.

[chinchilla]

Although I don't always agree with them, I must admit that a great deal of what bell-the-cat and lal say rings true.

And as they say, the truth hurts.

[lal]

I said so many things in my post and yet you didn't even have some dignity to reply to what I said like I do, phrase by phrase. I'm working my ass off here to say something, to help you understand what I mean and you just ignore my entire post. I answered your points almost completely there. And don't give me something like, "It's too long" or "I don't have time" because you seem to have time for everything else. Stop gluing to your words and try to understand what I'm saying, I completely understand what your saying, I guarantee you.

ı read all you write. but ı cant understand your solutions.
how shall we make turkish people and turkey to accept AG? by force???

during my parents time, turks and greeks hated each other. turkey invaded northern cyprus. we could have gone into a total war anytime...america put a hard ambargo on turkey. nothing is solved. today all the problems still exist. border problems in agean sea, airspace problems,turkish soldier is still in cyprus , but strangely these problems are no more taken so seriously and can be solved anytime and there is 0% chance of war. why? because people met each other and realised that ordinary ,simple people are same all over the world. a strong earthquaqe happened and greeks came to our help. it was very quick ,they were the first ones came,they were very generous,very natural. they cried for our losses. and everything finished. evil greek (not less than evil armenian)became an old good friend now. and the governments just had to follow public opinion. it didnt take centuries. it all happened in few months.

we can follow the same friendly path. why do you wait turkey to accept the genocide to travel turkey. turkey is always your home country. we must start cultural and friendly dialogs. so when you sit and drink with a turkish friend ,you nicely ask her/him about the genocide. why villages, women,children and elders were eliminated? you will be surprised to realise how ashamed he will be?

we have similar habits,similar music,similar food. armenians are artists. we have armenian signs everywhere in anatolia. we lived side by side so long.yes, turks made terrible things. if armenians can forgive, they will be big not turks,and may get a real friend. ım sure about this. armenians must not stay in the darkness,they must show themselves to turks. we must remember them before history and time divide us for ever. this is much more important than getting a half mouthed apologise of the turkish state.


dear saco,

please dont think that ı am a standard turk who defends his countries honour and makes excuses. because ım not so. ı love armenians. and ı really do. ım your friend and feel total sympathy to your struggles.you are right. and it is very difficult to be an armenian in this world. ı hope everything goes well with you people.

love

lal