Discussion Thread

[Alexandros]

Some of our Turkish friends thinks that if USA recognizes the AG that it would hurt the rapprochement between Turkey and Armenia and that it would be better to create a grassroot activity between ordinary Turks and Armenians and hopefully after a while this will create a better understanding by the Turks for what happened to the Armenians and that it would make it easier for the Turkish government to recognize the AG when there is a public opinion in Turkey who is in favour for the recognition of the AG.

From what I`m reading in different articles though is that in order for Turkey to open its border with Armenia, Turkey demands that Armenia accepts a joint-historian commission.That is ridiculous in my honest opinion.I have also read that Turkey will not open its border until there`s a solution to the Nagorno-Karabach issue.Armenia on the other hand, is ready to normalize diplomatic relations with Turkey without preconditions.Why can`t Turkey do the same?For me it`s obvious that Turkey wants to make the AG to a negotiation issue which is unacceptable!Think about it: Let`s say that Armenia accepts a joint-historian commission.Turkish historians will of course never accept that there was an AG and Armenian historians will of course say that there was indeed an AG.Turkey will start to blame Armenia for not cooperating and Armenia will blame Turkey for making the AG to a negotiation issue.I can`t see any positive coming out of this joint-historian commission.And even if there was some small positive steps taken by Turkey the next thing they would demand is that Armenia needs to withdraw their troops from Nagorno-Karabach in order for them to open their border with Armenia.Sorry, but this will never stop.Turkey will do every issue to a negotiation issue in order to get what they want.

Let me give you an example: Between Greece and Turkey there`s a dispute in the Aegean sea.Greece and Turkey have had over 34 meetings in order to solve this politically.Nothing happens.Greece has many times asked Turkey that both countries should agree to settle this dispute in the International Court of Justice in The Hague but Turkey refuses to do that.Oh well, not easy to have a neighbour who behaves like this.

Anyway, if other countries wants to recognize the AG they have every right to do that.If that pisses of the public opinion in Turkey then that is their problem.Who gave a xxxx about Greece and their public opinion when Turkey and many other countries recognized FYROM with the name "Macedonia"?

Lastly, if ordinary Armenians and Turks could start building bridges between their countries and their people - whether it`s on the net or in other ways - then that should be welcomed.However if other countries wants to recognize the AG - whether the Turks like it or not - they have every right to do that!

[Pedro Xaramillo]

My opinion

I see no reason for a Joint Historian commission as it makes no sense to debate historical fact, there was a Genocide, its been proved time and time again.
None of the Turkish counter claims make sense nor can be proven.
I think on this site alone we have so much evidence several books can already be filled, whereas Turkey only repeats the same old line so heavily steeped in Holdwater/Samuel Weems garbage.

Now as to the recognition in America, it is important to Armenians in America as they make up a large segment of the US population, why would you want to live and work and contribute to a country who basically calls your people liars or says your struggles are open to debate?

As long as the lines of harsh Nationalism is still active in Turkey, there will be
no real recognition of the Genocide, whether the US recognises the Genocide or not, it won't make much difference, sure they can pressure Turkey, but this may or may not work. A change in government is needed and people need to wake up to what their state is doing by article 301 and such.
In my opinion, there should be dialog with Turks yes, but those not following the Nationalist view and with guidance of people like Taner Akcam, Fatma Gocek, Orhan Pamuk, etc. There are Turks who do not have these racist views their government shares, look at Arda here for instace, these people need to be chatted with.

Bottom line is whether Turkey likes it or not, EVERY country should recognise the Genocide, because it is what is right, sometimes we have to transcend economic, national and ethnic boundaries and realise we all have a duty as fellow human beings to stand up for one another, if Turkey does not like that, their issue.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

yeah, did you fire me from education ministry ,my dear?

Well, sorry, at first place I never have appointed you, I am not the prime minister unfortunately…. LOL
Actually I will convert to Islam in the day when some one with your views will become a minister of education in turkey or at least will be allowed to teach in states school…

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

İf armenians consider turks as the enemy,then it is very important to hear USA presidents acceptence of genocide, it is also very important eu to refuse turkey, it is very important pkk terrorizm harming turkey,etc. because the ultimate goal is to force turkey to surrender and make her confess her guilt and get more.and until that day nobody cares what turks think about armenians,closed borders,etc

ı am not a turkish nationalist, thats why ı can see the truth,but dont expect me to be an armenian nationalist either.

thats why ı said before ı dont agree with you. ı prefer a diolog between people,nice and kind diologs, not ready to attack anytime in every opportunity,ı want open borders, starting turizm and trade,no visas. slowly learning the truth. than an apology by one by, than thousands, than millions, than the state.this is my path. obamas or nationalist armenians or turkish nationalists words ,spouts,cant change my thinking.

also,obviously ı didnt meant turks and azeris feel pain.(maybe azeris have some pain though) thats my poor english. but you also dont have to be so sensitive, right? because you know ım not a denier.

maybe ı am an idiot. nobody likes me, not turks nor armenians.

I like you

[Alexandros]

Well, sorry, at first place I never have appointed you, I am not the prime minister unfortunately…. LOL
Actually I will convert to Islam in the day when some one with your views will become a minister of education in turkey or at least will be allowed to teach in states school…

Vahe, you should check out Alevism(I know, wiki is not the best source but whatever):

Key Alevi characteristics include:

Love and respect for all people (“The important thing is not religion, but being a human being”)

Tolerance towards other religions and ethnic groups (“If you hurt another person, the ritual prayers you have done are counted as worthless”)

Respect for working people ("The greatest act of worship is to work”)


Read more here

If the Alevites were in majority in Turkey we would probably have a more democratic Turkey.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Vahe, you should check out Alevism(I know, wiki is not the best source but whatever):






If the Alevites were in majority in Turkey we would probably have a more democratic Turkey.

In did wiki is not best source… I have some Alevi aquatints. It is much more complex than that…. Well God knows what would be Turkey if Alevis were in majority… But one thing for sure world would be much nicer place if there wouldn’t be such a state at all…

[Steph]

I like you

I think we all like lal.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

We all like Lal, but I most of all like...me! (j/k)

http://www.alevibektasi.org/index1.html

Website about the Alevi religion

[hipeter924]

Not surprisingly there are strong feelings amongst Armenians of getting action sooner rather than later. This is understandable, it is still an emotive and painful issue even after the passing of so much time. Nevertheless, give Lal some credit for her analysis of geopolitical realities. I also feel that the best path to achieve recognition is to start at the grassroots level (a bottom up approach if you like) where individuals through collective pressure force the government to come to terms with its own history. Quite honestly this is the only way I can see the reconciliation process starting.

What won't happen:

Expecting the Turkish government to unilaterally acknowledge – never going to happen.

Expecting the Turkish government to acknowledge due to external political pressure i.e. Obama, French congress, EU etc – never going to happen (and even if they did, the acknowledgement wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on).

Expecting direct compensation, transfer payments or ceding territory to Armenia – never going to happen.

Expecting an apology for perpetrating the genocide – never going to happen (but see below).



What will happen (hopefully sooner rather than later):

Recognition (without admission to guilt to limit any possible legal liability).

Improvement in conditions and rights of Armenian and other minorities residing in Turkey as a result of recognition.

Protection and restoration of cultural and religious sites.

Regional security and trade/access guarantees to Armenia.

Goodwill gestures - Mt Ararat, right of return for diaspora etc.

Apology for "denying" the genocide.

I will add a new category and change it a bit:

What won't happen:

Expecting the Turkish government to unilaterally acknowledge – never going to happen.

Expecting the Turkish government to acknowledge due to external political pressure i.e. Obama, French congress, EU etc – never going to happen (and even if they did, the acknowledgment wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on).

Expecting ceding territory to Armenia – never going to happen.

What could happen

Tribunal set up in Turkey to go through claims of stolen land, property,etc which at least gives some of it back (like land with nothing on it, or some money could be paid out). - Relies on genocide recognition + apology and improved relations between Turks and Armenians

Territory of Nagorno-Karabakh becomes independent (and the Azeri's misplaced return, and economic aid is given) resolving the military tension between Armenia, Turkey and Azeri's (sorry can't spell it right). - Really difficult and controversial I admit.

What will happen (hopefully sooner rather than later):

True Democracy and Free Speech in Turkey:
Allows improvement in conditions and rights of Armenian and other minorities residing in Turkey
-> Genocide Recognition
-> Freedom of Travel between Turkey and Armenia (with possible trade)
-> Protection and restoration of cultural and religious sites.
-> Apology for "denying" the genocide

[Steph]

What could happen

Territory of Nagorno-Karabakh becomes independent (and the Azeri's misplaced return, and economic aid is given) resolving the military tension between Armenia, Turkey and Azeri's (sorry can't spell it right). - Really difficult and controversial I admit.

The big players on the world stage would never let this happen, with military tension in strategic areas of the world they're able to play their games of "ally and enemy", switching to whichever is expedient at the time, feeding their military industries and attempting to control the dwindling resources of this planet. Armenia has been cursed by it's geographic position since 3,ooo years, turkey thinks it's been blessed by it's strategic position but I think it's been doubly cursed.
the emphasis is rightly on turkey for recognition but I don't believe azerbad,jan will ever repent,recant or change, if anything they will get worse and become more outrageous.