Discussion Thread

[Edoman]

you said that you left turkey recently if ım not wrong. many armenians who have never seen turkey may have wrong opinions about armenian issue in turkey . we have to hear from you more often. you can be more objective and tell us how is life in turkey being an armenian. is it very painful?

many armenians think that in short period,turkey will admit AG. they even make plans about what must be done afterwards. But in turkey ı cant see even smallest sign of such a thing. ı mean, there is not even a real sympathy towards armenians. unless turkish people are properly informed about the issue, and meet armenians culturally and remind that they lived with us for centuries and all these ruins of churches in thousands of villages belong to them,how can people understand the issue.

ı simply dont understand ,how AG can be accepted by turkey if turks are not convinced about it.even if all the world call it a genocide, which turkish government can accept this?

a campaign of ''positive armenian'' must start in turkey.everything good about armenians must be shown to turks.

armenia is a real tiny country. 72 million people live in turkey. and total of armenia is less than 3 million. purchasing power parity of armenia is 17,17 billion dollars while turkey is 853,9 billion dollars( usa is 13,580 trillion dollars)

even gdp per capita is very low in armenia. 12,00 dollars per peson in turkey and 5,800 dollars in armenia.

also please read.


current situation: Armenia is primarily a source country for women and girls trafficked to the UAE and Turkey for the purpose of commercial sexual exploitation; Armenian men and women are trafficked to Turkey and Russia for the purpose of forced labor
tier rating: Tier 2 Watch List - Armenia is placed on the Tier 2 Watch List for a fourth consecutive year; its efforts to increase compliance with the minimum standards were assessed based on its commitments to undertake future actions, particularly in the areas of improving victim protection and assistance; while the government elevated anti-trafficking responsibilities to the ministerial level, adopted a new National Action Plan, and drafted a National Referral Mechanism, it has yet to show tangible progress in identifying and protecting victims or in tackling trafficking complicity of government officials; the Armenian Government made some notable improvements in its anti-trafficking law enforcement efforts, but it failed to demonstrate evidence of investigations, prosecutions, convictions, and sentences of officials complicit in trafficking (2008)
source

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2196.html

situation in armenia is not as diaspora armenians want to see. numbers show the reality.why doesnt diaspora armenians move to armenia?


what ım trying to say is not intimidate armenians. but it is not realistic to expect to beat turkey under these conditions.

the only way to make turkish state to accept AG is to ally with turks inside turkey who want to live in a more democratic country. armenians are not foreigners to turks who have roots outside of turkey. we can work and fight together about this huge injustice done against you friends.we must change the extreme nationalist-also islamist wierd turkish system together.but we friendly turks who want justice can not ally with todays imperialist powers which is against to all our political views. what happened to armenians was a result of ottoman empires evil imperialist attitude. now armenians must not expect anything from todays evil imperialist power,even if you happen to live among them.you people belong to anatolia and must come back here.


lal

Dear Lal. Noticed that Armenia is the only one on that list that has NO children trafficking, and it is NOT a transition route.
What do you expect Lal? Turkey and Azerbaijan are blockading the small landlock Armenia and doing everything to hurt us. those women are probably forced to sell themselves to make ends meet, most are probably widows of Kharapakh and some are forced in it by our mafia. With high unemployment rate and not much opportunity (due to above reason) some men and women have no other choice but to leave the country and take any job to support their family. Open the Armenian traditional trade routes and see what happens.

I always get that “If you love Armenia why don’t you go and live there?” The answer is simple. Armenians in Diaspora are a much greater help to Armenia than if they were to live there. Plus, it makes Turkey very angry that we are not all in one spot and that we are making BIG trouble for them overseas. This is one reason why they will never succeed in forcing Armenia from dropping the AG bill, even if they bomb the Armenian electrical facilities in the dead of winter on the pretext that we are harboring PKK in Armenia, which they have been itching to do, they should know by now, it won’t work.

Armenian Diaspora is major threat to Turkey, do not underestimate us, Turkey knows this very well and they know there isn’t much they can do about it other than continue the same policy of intimidations and treats. Our Armenian roots are unshakable, our resolve is strong, our children will never forget and will become even more extreme by each generation and we will eventually hand Turkey’s Butt back to them on a silver platter, legally, in front of the whole world.

Sheers

[lal]

Dear Lal. Noticed that Armenia is the only one on that list that has NO children trafficking, and it is NOT a transition route.
What do you expect Lal? Turkey and Azerbaijan are blockading the small landlock Armenia and doing everything to hurt us. those women are probably forced to sell themselves to make ends meet, most are probably widows of Kharapakh and some are forced in it by our mafia. With high unemployment rate and not much opportunity (due to above reason) some men and women have no other choice but to leave the country and take any job to support their family. Open the Armenian traditional trade routes and see what happens.

I always get that “If you love Armenia why don’t you go and live there?” The answer is simple. Armenians in Diaspora are a much greater help to Armenia than if they were to live there. Plus, it makes Turkey very angry that we are not all in one spot and that we are making BIG trouble for them overseas. This is one reason why they will never succeed in forcing Armenia from dropping the AG bill, even if they bomb the Armenian electrical facilities in the dead of winter on the pretext that we are harboring PKK in Armenia, which they have been itching to do, they should know by now, it won’t work.

Armenian Diaspora is major threat to Turkey, do not underestimate us, Turkey knows this very well and they know there isn’t much they can do about it other than continue the same policy of intimidations and treats. Our Armenian roots are unshakable, our resolve is strong, our children will never forget and will become even more extreme by each generation and we will eventually hand Turkey’s Butt back to them on a silver platter, legally, in front of the whole world.

Sheers

okay, your words are fine, and ım certainly not making a dog fight.but how will this happen? how will turkish state or even turkish people will accept the genocide. ım serious, ı read you people, you say it will happen but you dont say how? ı want phantom to write. he knows the situation here.

sometghing new must start. maybe if men shut up, women can solve it.

[Edoman]

Quite the contrary amigo, Azerbaijan's status is likely to be elevated in the next decade as the darling of the West. One reason only: Oil (aka black gold). And with increased wealth comes status, friends and influence. As my friend Tony Montana likes to say:
"..you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women."

This could prove all very problematic for resource poor Armenia in the future.

You are underestimating a few simple facts.

Azeris know very well that the land does not belong to them so they will never be ready to fight to the death for it. Armenians have a lot more courage and can fight an overwhelming force in the most severe conditions with hardly any food or water if they must. This is not the Armenian military we are talking about, these are the normal Armenians. The Armenian Diaspora will also volunteer to fight.

As far as Armenians are concerned this dispute over Karabagh is OVER. The place has always been Armenian, even before the war the population was 90% Armenian. Azeris need to be very careful. All the Jets and Tanks and state of the art Israeli weapons are not going to give them courage to fight us in the trenches. This time we might just take Baku and hold the oil fields.

[Joseph]

okay, your words are fine, and ım certainly not making a dog fight.but how will this happen? how will turkish state or even turkish people will accept the genocide. ım serious, ı read you people, you say it will happen but you dont say how? ı want phantom to write. he knows the situation here.

sometghing new must start. maybe if men shut up, women can solve it.

Lal and other Turks here make very valid points.

1. The Turks are not going to make any changes under durress
2. If Armenians continue to make seemingly unrealistic claims and/or threats it will only decrease the chance for any justice.
3. The change will have to come from within and will take much time.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

No matter

No mater what Azeris do, what you need to remember is Armenians in the diaspora have made friends with many diverse people internationally, and along the way inform them of the Great Tragedy, hence alot of people would not allow Azeris to in anyway attack Armenians if they can help it.

This is one of the main reasons that the Genocide needs to be protested as this helps people learn about the situation and who the Armenians are (for people who don't have alot of Armenians or any in their country), anyone with an ounce of respect for equality and tolerance would not allow Azeri aggression against Hayastan

As to the should men shut up and women solve it part, that might be a good idea, we have our moments, but men can be full of it, have you seen how we drive before? We also have a refusal to read any map or instruction manual lol

[Edoman]

okay, your words are fine, and ım certainly not making a dog fight.but how will this happen? how will turkish state or even turkish people will accept the genocide. ım serious, ı read you people, you say it will happen but you dont say how? ı want phantom to write. he knows the situation here.

sometghing new must start. maybe if men shut up, women can solve it.

Hey, my wife told me the same thing the other day. I guess I deserve it. Sorry Lal, my bad.
I get carried away, I forget that just about everybody is a friendly here. My bad.

Phantom, ba vordeghess dou (where are you), ari meban assa (come say something), yessel ozoomem imanam haiyere inchen methastoom Turkiaee metch (I like to know as well what Armenians think in Turkey). Doo luves assoom (You make good posts) Hajoghochoon arpher (Take care)

[lal]

You are underestimating a few simple facts.

Azeris know very well that the land does not belong to them so they will never be ready to fight to the death for it. Armenians have a lot more courage and can fight an overwhelming force in the most severe conditions with hardly any food or water if they must. This is not the Armenian military we are talking about, these are the normal Armenians. The Armenian Diaspora will also volunteer to fight.

As far as Armenians are concerned this dispute over Karabagh is OVER. The place has always been Armenian, even before the war the population was 90% Armenian. Azeris need to be very careful. All the Jets and Tanks and state of the art Israeli weapons are not going to give them courage to fight us in the trenches. This time we might just take Baku and hold the oil fields.

you see, this style is very wrong. you say armenians will beat azeris, and he will say turkey or azeris will beat. we go nowhere like this.it is a war of words. not intelligent. we need to search a real solution.

lets say you are right and karabağ is armenian land now and nothing to talk left anymore,then what do you expect? armenian people will go on as servants or other things to turkey,turkey will never open the borders let aside accepting the genocide.so we dont talk anything, you say you will take your revenge someday and live with hate and turks will say the things they say today.

ı dont say you have to give karabağ back. but there must be some way of bargain. ı dont say diaspora has no power ,but ı know it is a limited power when you have a 72 million people as a market and 17th biggest economy as the enemy.

ı hate to write like a typical turk here , proving how powerless armenians are and how giant is turkey is.ı know what ı do is very immoral but ı want armenians to be more realistic and ı want AG to be accepted by turkey.

there is only one way to do this. and that is not figting against turkey totally but seperating turkish state aside and fighting against its very outdated and inhuman antidemocratic fashist politics.

a real sincere revolution,maybe something model for other countries,including your beloved america, needed in this country.ım sorry but an american citizen who considers what happened in ıraq as a normal ,not so important attack ,cant understand what ım talking about.

[Joseph]

You are underestimating a few simple facts.

Azeris know very well that the land does not belong to them so they will never be ready to fight to the death for it. Armenians have a lot more courage and can fight an overwhelming force in the most severe conditions with hardly any food or water if they must. This is not the Armenian military we are talking about, these are the normal Armenians. The Armenian Diaspora will also volunteer to fight.

As far as Armenians are concerned this dispute over Karabagh is OVER. The place has always been Armenian, even before the war the population was 90% Armenian. Azeris need to be very careful. All the Jets and Tanks and state of the art Israeli weapons are not going to give them courage to fight us in the trenches. This time we might just take Baku and hold the oil fields.

I agree and disagree to some extent. The Armenians were/are fighting for survival in Artsakh; the Azeris for pride. It doesn't really have much to do with bravery although there were/are many brave Armenians. The Armenians will ultimately win if the conflict begins again because the choice is to win or die. They will win becuase the Azeris will be the ones on the attack from inferior positions and even if they are initially successful in breaching the first line of defense, the counter-attack will be devastating. All the Armenians have to do is essentially play defense and counterattack.

The Armenian diaspora did not really volunteer the first time except for a handfull- but those that did were certainly effective. I also think the Karabakhtis are not beholden to trust outsiders.

The reasons the Armenian forces did not continue to move east are the following:

1. The Russians categorically told them to stop or else.
2. They would have found themselves at a strategic disadvantage if they contiuned into the lowland plains far from their well-known territory, defensive positions and supply lines. In spite of any success in a renewed conflict, Armenia will not be moving toward Baku. Yevlakh is another story though.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

I guess a friend of mine summed it up well

He wasn't referring to Armenians or the Armenian/Turkish/Azeri situation, but I think it can apply :

I percieve revolution as being a change in the people - arguably the system would follow but the people are what need changing before anything "real" can happen.

Turkey needs to change internally, yes the government needs to change, but the Turkish citizens must make the government change its mind, Joseph is right on this

[Joseph]

Lal and other Turks here make very valid points.

1. The Turks are not going to make any changes under durress
2. If Armenians continue to make seemingly unrealistic claims and/or threats it will only decrease the chance for any justice.
3. The change will have to come from within and will take much time.

Furthermore, the life for Turkish liberals and scholars who work for justice are facing an ever increasingly difficult time related to the Armenian Genocide issue.

This is the impasse.



Genocide deserves recognition and justice. The truth needs to be told and in order to do so, the aggrieved party must be vocal about it otherwise the party that committed the crime, or in this case continues the cover-up would rather have the crime dissappear.

I see no easy answer and I do feel that both sides have unreasonable claims.

Armenians will not get land, money, etc. but Turks will eventually have to come to grips with this crime and stop the cover up which only further antagonizes Armenians and makes them look like criminals.