Discussion Thread

[phantom]

Sorry Gavur, I thought you were talking to me, but I see now that you were taking to Vahe.

[Edoman]

Phantom, well said. Thanks for your reply. I don’t know how you guys do it but I consider the Armenians in Turkey the custodians of Ancient Armenia living in great danger.

"Start teaching Ottoman in schools as a 2nd tongue,what about it?" Brilliant Gavur.
Hey I wonder if Lal wears a headscarf.


Joseph, I have been thinking about this and it is driving me nuts.

The reasons the Armenian forces did not continue to move east are the following:

1. The Russians categorically told them to stop or else.
2. They would have found themselves at a strategic disadvantage if they contiuned into the lowland plains far from their well-known territory, defensive positions and supply lines. In spite of any success in a renewed conflict, Armenia will not be moving toward Baku. Yevlakh is another story though.

I wonder what the good General would have said about the second chance we lost in taking the Primary Target.

I have a feeling he might have ignored the Russians if he was there. Would that have been a right decision? I don't know.

[Steph]

Yah I herd of Baku - Jeyhan pipeline...

Well it is geopolitics...but turkey can show that it got balls when it wants to: I was very surprised when turks refused US to invade Iraq from its teritory.... They didnt care how dependent they are on US

Well, surely no-one thinks that Russia invaded Georgia for the sake of the South Ossetians. They're more peeved about that pipeline than anything, if it wasn't for the Caspian fuel reserves I'm sure they would have allowed those pesky Chechens independence.

[Steph]

That is not correct LAL. Azerbaijan is very dependent on Turkey too. How is Azerbaijan going to deliver its oil to the west if Turkey closes the pipeline that runs through its land?

Russia's more likely to close it before it reaches Turkey, in fact I saw, during last August, a proposed rerouting through Armenia, to put even more distance between the Russian bear and the oil pipeline. Interesting.

[Alexandros]

Closed Armenian-Turkish border nonsense


10.12.2008 15:56 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Turkish top officials understand that closed border with Armenia is an abnormal phenomenon, said the editor of the Armenian sector of Agos newspaper.

“Our trip from Istanbul to Yerevan lasted two hours. Direct flights are exercised 4 times a week. The two countries are engaged on trade relations. It means that it senseless to keep the border closed,” Bagrat Estukyan told a news conference in Yerevan today.

“I am hopeful that the dialogue launched by Armenia and Turkey will result in an open border,” he said.

Link

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Well, surely no-one thinks that Russia invaded Georgia for the sake of the South Ossetians. They're more peeved about that pipeline than anything, if it wasn't for the Caspian fuel reserves I'm sure they would have allowed those pesky Chechens independence.

Well... don’t know ... Russian Imperialistic ambitions, unlike US imperialism, not always connected to Oil… they are much more complex…

[Gavur]

My family left when I was young. But I've gone back to visit a few times, last summer most recently. My dad moved back there a decade ago and has a business there. I also have cousins, aunts, uncles, etc., including ethnically Turkish relatives and relatives who are mixed; part ethnically Turkish and part ethnically Armenian.

What are their feelings (mixed ones) about AG,or do you ever converse w/them re: this issue?

[lal]

Actually, I agree with you for the most part LAL. The change has to come from Turks in Turkey. Now, let me ask you this. There are maybe 50,000 Armenians still living in Istanbul. They've been there for centuries. What do the Turks think of these people? Every Turk I ever met in Istanbul or from Turkey who ever had dealings with Armenians love us. Why? Because we're good people; we are fair in business; we are open-minded compared to everyone else; we contribute to the country; and we love our country. We make Turkey a better place, not a worse one. Why don't the Turks who know us go out there and say what is so obvious: "These Armenians are loyal; they are good citizens even after their lands were taken and their relatives "deported". If after all that was done to their ancestors they are still good and loyal citizens of Turkey, how can we believe that they were ever bad citizens, or that they "back-stabbed" us?" This is just pure common sense. Why do so few Turks employ this common sense?

Yes, Turks need to learn that Armenians are not parasites, but that they are and have always been good and valuable citizens. But the burden should be on Turks to do this, not on Armenians. They have to do it themselves if they are human beings and not animals. And this whole idea of villifying evil "diaspora" Armenians. Who do you think makes up the Armenian diaspora? Turkish-Armenians, that's who! Armenians who were robbed of everything they had and were kicked out of their country with never an apology or anything resembling human compassion or understanding for 90+ years from the Turkish people. What do the Turkish people expect from the "diasporan Armenians"?

Istanbul Armenians have always favored keeping a low profile, staying silent, and not making waves in Turkey. When push comes to shove, they always side with Turkey against the truth. But silently, quietly, I can assure you, as an Istanbul Armenian, that we all know the truth. Every one of our families has a story of an ancestor who was killed. In my family, it was my great-grandfather on my mother's side; a very wealthy man, who if left alone, would have contributed greatly to the advancement and progress of the Turkish Republic. Instead, his life was cut short, and his widow was left to raise 3 sons alone and poor. The descendants of those 3 boys almost all live in America now, where they have again built incredible wealth and prosperity; prosperity that should have remained in Turkey, not America.

But I digress. After Hrant Dink died, Istanbul Armenians are edging near the end of their rope. Even though they love their country, their patience is running out. They want to see some form of humanity coming from their Turkish neighbors and friends. They want to see some solidarity against discrimination and marginalization. They are sick of being viewed as parasites. They see how valued their diasporan counterparts are in countries where there were no Armenians 100 years ago, and they feel the irony and injustice of their situation in the country where they have continuously contributed and suffered for 600 years.

There are Turks who are beginning to see all of this. The blinders of hate and intolerance are being lifted from the eyes of more and more Turks, and in my view it is high time. You are an example. More Turks have to join people like you so that you are not discouraged and again silenced. When your voices are raised and allowed to be raised without risk of harm, then the Turkish people will begin to learn the truth and will hopefully allow their humanity to interject into their collective view of who the Armenians are and what happened to them. As you said, no country in the world can force ignorant people to do the right thing. The first thing to do is to remove this cloak of ignorance, and that can only happen if the Turkish people allow it and want it to happen. From there, everything gets better. Once the Turkish people realize that we are not and were never the enemy, and that we were the victims of one of the world's greatest crimes, everything between our people will get better. We, the Armenians, are ready and simply waiting. Fortunately, we are a patient people. But like I said above, the patience, particularly among Istanbul Armenians is not infinite.

As for Armenia, you are again correct that Armenia will be a much healthier nation economically and socially if the border is open. But as you should know by now, even with the border closed, Armenia has made greater improvements in almost every sphere compared to its caucasus neighbors. And that despite the fact it has few natural resources. Up until now, the Turks thought they could isolate Armenia and doing so would do irreversible harm. The reason for that is, again, based on the general ignorance of the Turkish people who don't know the Armenian people nor their history. Why do a people with so few members have their own unique language and alphabet? Why do they stubbornly persist in having their own specific religion that is different from all of their neighbors? Could it be that isolation is a strength for us and not a detriment; that it results in our preservation and not our demise? The Turks don't know this, because the ignorance that is forced on them does not allow them to learn about us and our history. To this day the Turkish people wrongly think that Turkey's policy towards Armenia has lead to Armenia's great demise; they don't realize that Armenia has enjoyed double digit economic growth for the past 7 years; they don't see that while the world's economic superpowers are experiencing serious recession, little Armenia is still mostly isolated from the worst effects of the world's economic meltdown. For example, for the past 3 months, nobody in Turkey can do any business that has anything to do with importing or exporting goods and services, because the value of the Lira versus the dollar and other major currencies is in turmoil and changes significantly every day. Thus, it's almost impossible to make a contract for the exchange of goods or services unless the exchange of money and those goods/services is going to happen within a day or two. But look at Armenia at the same time; is it experiencing these turmoils? Is its economy at a virtual standstill like Turkey's? The Turks think isolation is Armenia's enemy. It isn't.

In summary, I agree that things won't get better between Armenia and Turkey and Armenians and Turks unless the change in view and in heart comes from the Turkish people. We can't force it on them. At the same time, the Turkish people cannot expect diaspora Armenians (descendants of Turkish-Armenians) to stay silent about the horrors and violence done to their grandparents and great-grandparents. Just because we can't force Turkey to do the right thing doesn't mean we have to forget and ignore the past? It's not fair to us, nor to the world, which can learn great lessons from the first Genocide of the 20th century.

thanks for your sincere answer. you are right. turkish people who have or had contact with armenians really like them. the ones who never met them are the ones full of hate. but the same thing can be true for diaspora armenians. ı know a turkish student in usa,when he met an armenian, he spit on his face.while the ones like yourselves,who still have memories of turkey are neutral against turks at least.

the reason why turks cannot accept armenians recognition demands is a different story. it is about how we are raised and our religon islam. we are not sensitive people as a culture.we are not intellectuels either. we consider AG as a normal ,ordinary war.

turks know what happened to armenians ,but cant feel the pain of it. but armenians very stubbernly teaching turks that, humans have no right to do mass destructions . so even if AG happened 100 years ago, someday ı believe it will be accepted by turks.


and believe me, turks must be thankful to armenians for their struggle for justice. this helps turkey to face the realities and give a chance to clean herself.

[bell-the-cat]

I got my numbers travelling all around turkey...sorry no scientific survey...

But don't fall into the trap of thinking a week or so travelling in one of Armen's groups (or some similar setup) has taught you everything there is to know about Turks and Turkey. I've seen S. Karapet too.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

But don't fall into the trap of thinking a week or so travelling in one of Armen's groups (or some similar setup) has taught you everything there is to know about Turks and Turkey. I've seen S. Karapet too.

I was travelling alone, never was in a group, I went to places were groups do not go... I am happy you have seen Surb Karapets ruins.. What else you have seen?
I never said I knoe every thing about Turks and Turkey, but I know enough...