Discussion Thread

[bell-the-cat]

I was travelling alone, never was in a group,

Well done! You are one of the very few.

I went to places were groups do not go...

I doubt if you went to places that Armen hasn't previously been to, or wouldn't have gone to if you had been on one of his tours and asked. But participants in his groups do tend to be isolated from everyday Turkey, hence my earlier comment.

I am happy you have seen Surb Karapets ruins.. What else you have seen?

Almost everywhere.

[chinchilla]

Who is Armen?

[Alexandros]

Who is Armen?

Armen=Armenians

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Well done! You are one of the very few.



I doubt if you went to places that Armen hasn't previously been to, or wouldn't have gone to if you had been on one of his tours and asked. But participants in his groups do tend to be isolated from everyday Turkey, hence my earlier comment.

Tell me more about Armen

[phantom]

What are their feelings (mixed ones) about AG,or do you ever converse w/them re: this issue?

Gavur, that's a good question. Let me give you an example. So it's Thanksgiving and we are all gathered at my aunt's house in Los Angeles. We are maybe 25 people, all related by blood or marriage, including a couple of odars (one Greek, one Jew, and one American). The conversation of the Armenian Genocide comes up. One of my cousins who grew up in Istanbul and went to Turkish public schools starts in on why the Armenians should drop the issue. She argues that it's the past, and we should look to the future. She argues, how can Turkish people be guilty for something their grandparents did. She argues that this topic makes it impossible for Armenia and Turkey to become friendly neighbor countries. She's basically arguing the official denialist line of reasoning. The odar Jew is shocked that an Armenian is talking like a Holocaust denier. I, of course, xxxxx slap the shiiite out of her argument by simply pointing out that Armenia will never be safe if Turkey as a nation doesn't atone and learn the truth about this horror.

Now, that's just an example of one view. And I should say that almost everyone else in attendance agreed with me. And mind you, this entire conversation, and almost all of our conversations during these family gatherings, happen in Turkish or at least mixed Turkish and Armenian.

Now, when I was in Turkey, and I was speaking with Armenians, they were in agreement with me, but in almost every conversation with someone it would seem to me like they were having an epiphany or a revelation. Like, hey, that's a good point, how can Armenians be truly safe if Turks don't feel bad about what happened to us, but instead learn that we were backstabbing parasites. Even though they conceptually agreed for the most part that what happened was catastrophic, it didn't seem to dawn on anyone that I spoke to that things could be different. Also, almost everyone has to some level bought into the idea that Armenians weren't totally innocent, and that mass murder can at some level be justified. I think this is part of the morality and attitude of the people of Turkey in general. Even though they are good people, they believe there is no justification for disloyalty, and they find it difficult to tell the difference between disloyalty and sticking up for your rights. So, in the end, they believe there is justification for punishing disloyalty and the Armenians of Turkey have bought into this attitude to some extent. Thus, it is much easier for them to justify mass murder than it is for those who are raised in the West and who believe that there can never be justification for mass murder.

I have to go now, but I thought I'd drop you a quick note to try to answer your question.

[Gavur]

Thank you,I'm pleased to see at least in your family it is not taboo to discuss,unlike mine who ignore the issue alltogether..

[lal]

Gavur, that's a good question. Let me give you an example. So it's Thanksgiving and we are all gathered at my aunt's house in Los Angeles. We are maybe 25 people, all related by blood or marriage, including a couple of odars (one Greek, one Jew, and one American). The conversation of the Armenian Genocide comes up. One of my cousins who grew up in Istanbul and went to Turkish public schools starts in on why the Armenians should drop the issue. She argues that it's the past, and we should look to the future. She argues, how can Turkish people be guilty for something their grandparents did. She argues that this topic makes it impossible for Armenia and Turkey to become friendly neighbor countries. She's basically arguing the official denialist line of reasoning. The odar Jew is shocked that an Armenian is talking like a Holocaust denier. I, of course, xxxxx slap the shiiite out of her argument by simply pointing out that Armenia will never be safe if Turkey as a nation doesn't atone and learn the truth about this horror.

Now, that's just an example of one view. And I should say that almost everyone else in attendance agreed with me. And mind you, this entire conversation, and almost all of our conversations during these family gatherings, happen in Turkish or at least mixed Turkish and Armenian.

Now, when I was in Turkey, and I was speaking with Armenians, they were in agreement with me, but in almost every conversation with someone it would seem to me like they were having an epiphany or a revelation. Like, hey, that's a good point, how can Armenians be truly safe if Turks don't feel bad about what happened to us, but instead learn that we were backstabbing parasites. Even though they conceptually agreed for the most part that what happened was catastrophic, it didn't seem to dawn on anyone that I spoke to that things could be different. Also, almost everyone has to some level bought into the idea that Armenians weren't totally innocent, and that mass murder can at some level be justified. I think this is part of the morality and attitude of the people of Turkey in general. Even though they are good people, they believe there is no justification for disloyalty, and they find it difficult to tell the difference between disloyalty and sticking up for your rights. So, in the end, they believe there is justification for punishing disloyalty and the Armenians of Turkey have bought into this attitude to some extent. Thus, it is much easier for them to justify mass murder than it is for those who are raised in the West and who believe that there can never be justification for mass murder.

I have to go now, but I thought I'd drop you a quick note to try to answer your question.

phantom, my dear

ı want to thank you for honestly sharing your feelings here.you wanted me to be the president of turkey. and ı declare you the best ambassador of armenians.

ı m touched by your words, ı get saddened when ı think why you people are so far away from home.
maybe you can come back when your honour given back to you.

[phantom]

phantom, my dear

ı want to thank you for honestly sharing your feelings here.you wanted me to be the president of turkey. and ı declare you the best ambassador of armenians.

ı m touched by your words, ı get saddened when ı think why you people are so far away from home.
maybe you can come back when your honour given back to you.

Thanks LAL. Maybe not in the nearest future, but maybe some of our great-grandchildren will live together again. What's for certain is that Armenia and Turkey are destined to be neighbor nations, and it is in their mutual best interest to be tight with one another. They should have open borders and vacation in each other's lands.

But as far as a widespread migration of Armenians back to Turkey, I don't think that would be advisable for the longterm existence of the Armenian people. We have learned from history over and over again that we need a homeland that is our own, where we can go to if we are threatened in our adopted nation, and that we can defend against aggressors. Who knows, for example, maybe 100 years from now Germans will decide to kill all Turks and Armenians living in Germany, and we will need a safe haven. So a strong but peaceful Armenia is vital for the perpetuation of our people. We will never be big in numbers, and we don't need a giant land. We just need a nice and comfortable land that can be traced back to our ancestors and that can be a safe haven for us in times of turmoil. We have that land now, and it's called Armenia and Artsakh (Nagorno Karabagh). We just need to make meaningful and deep peace with our neighbors, and that will make Armenia and Artsakh a good neighbor for Turkey and Azerbaijan and a safe and good place to live for Armenians.

[phantom]

Thank you,I'm pleased to see at least in your family it is not taboo to discuss,unlike mine who ignore the issue alltogether..

Why do they ignore it altogether? Where are you from Gavur?

[phantom]

Thank you,I'm pleased to see at least in your family it is not taboo to discuss,unlike mine who ignore the issue alltogether..

Why do they ignore it altogether? Where are you from Gavur?