Parallel Roads

[hitite]

Not gonna happen, sorry. Knowledge is the only savior right now. Many don’t know what to believe and no one is going to blindly accept everything. Nice dream though. Many Turks talk without remembering where they live or what’s going on. Open your eyes and then provide excellent views, not the other way around.

Ok my eyes are open and I wan to provide "excellent views", I just dont know what the frack you're talking about. You seem very confused yourself to be talking about 'confused' Turks...

[ardakilic]

ı want to know something. when your fight finishes and assyrian,kurd, greek genocides are also accepted and their lands given to them, where are you going to be living ,in armenia?

Lal, are you aware that whenever i mention the issues about confrontation and accept the sins of Ittihadist-Kemalist, as a nationalist always do, you put the table "land issue". Isnt your argument valid for AG recognition? "If you recognize AG, Armenians will demand land". I didnt state a single word about land. Please, do not deflect my words.

Also: I didnt mention "Kurd Genocide". Yes, huge crimes commited against Kurd people, but those werent genocide. I mentioned Dersim Genocide.

ı think if turkish state is in the extreme side, you sure are in the other extreme side. extreme sides are always dangerous and not to the good of people.not even good for armenians. because you give those nationalist good reasons to be so wild. you give reasons for turkish military to spend so much in such a poor country.anybody who reads you can react.

Lal, do you know the fallacy of False Dilemma (Black/White Fallacy)? Please read it.

You can find a source in Turkish: http://www.safsatakilavuzu.com/safsa...ornekler-2.htm

my solution is no fights. real democracy, than slowly naturally no visa, easier borders and sympatyh and friendship. and if possible living side by side again.
no western armenia, no northern kurdistan, no pontus. but learning to live all together with all colours in the same time in the democratic republic of anatolia.

Even that solution can make nationalist angry lal. So by making your ideas soft, you cannot get rid of angry reactions.

[Sako]

Sorry for any confusion, Steph, here's a simplified version of what I said . I don't get what confused you though.

I based what I said on different posts and maybe you didn't read all of the other posts and got confused. Ayways, here's a line by line clarification.

You know what I don’t sometimes understand, why all the solutions are simply related to relations and Turkey starting to understand what’s happened. This isn’t a moral war where we need to teach the Turks how to live and even worse, at the expense of our country, our feelings, our ancestors.

What I meant was that when people say, like Joseph did, that "by demanding almost anything from the country that killed almost all of us, we Armenians alienate Turkey" it seems like we're the ones to blame and that we should take what Turkey gives and say nothing more or less. I'd rather live my whole life never forgiving Turkey then go with that approach. It demoralizes our nation and the blood that was spilt for it to prosper. Further on, what I meant by moralistic solutions is that most solutions I hear today only help Turkey get a better face in the world to show it's responsible. How do those solutions help Armenia and it's people though? Simply to be able to have close-to-normal relations with Turks? Most of the solutions I read were secondary solutions or solutions that pretty much will naturally happen. Not serious solutions that will shout out Justice which I want to see, now, tomorrow or in a century. I don't give a damn. Justice and simply accepting the AG are two different things, a thousand miles apart. I want Justice, period, and I don't care how anyone feels. A person truly believing the Genocide happened should feel the same way unless he/she is lying. Justice should be served properly. I will not hang my head, I didn't anything wrong.

There are many things that Turkey can do for us and she will. Like I said, I'm not asking for land or something else that won't/can't be returned. When people say "This (or that) will be done only because of the good will of the people" it seems like their saying "You Armenians don't deserve it but because the Turks are so "kind", they'll give or do something". My point is, that's what they HAVE to do ... not CAN do. Moralistic War (the term I used) is a war filled with moralistic problems rather then physical problems that need to be dealt with such as Armenians not being able to talk with Turks for example. That's a moral issue which may not change for a long time even after the AG is recognized, which isn't supposed to be our main or even secondary issue. That's Turkey's problem but we will help the Turks get this issue cleared up, like we are right now, IF we see that proper steps are being taken. That's what I meant when I said "kneeling" ...

My country deserves attention after not getting any for almost a century and I will stand straight with my head high because me, my country, and my people deserve to do so. I will not kneel because if I do so, my country will also kneel.

What I meant was that we will keep ourselves straight and help if we can, not jump out of our skin to help the Turks, especially if they don't take steps to changing what they've done.

That's what pisses me off. If the Genocide was accepted the way many here think it should be, I'd be disgusted. Turkey wouldn't really be taking many steps forward. Only the morals of Turkey might change, nothing else. That is kneeling and being sympathetic. Turkey has the ability to take care of this issue with justice in mind, don't doubt that. So why shouldn't she? Don't we deserve that? Most solutions I read weren't helping Armenia as a country but rather just changing the way people look at the AG issue. Is that what we want? Many of these solutions may help many individuals but not an entire country and I can tell you why.

The past is gone Joseph, your right, but I’m not. I’m not asking for land and all, that’s farfetched, truly, but there is LOT’S that CAN be returned, SHOULD be returned, and WILL be returned. Mark my words. WHY shouldn’t we take it all back? That would be true recognition. I don’t give a hoot what anyone feels like. If a person who accepts the Genocide feels bad that Armenia gets what it deserves then they aren’t recognizers and I don’t care what they believe in, not one bit. Sorry if this seems rude but this it is the truth. If it isn’t, define recognition, I’m saying this to everyone.

Basically what I said above was what I was trying to say in the above paragraph.

I’m not going to be sentimental; the real Turks out there that are ruining everything don’t deserve my sympathy. And those that KNOW the Genocide happened but still deny it will love to be in hell then in my hands or the clutches of my country. Those that want to move on or even try once to do so will be shown unlimited help, respect, and care but those that don’t are on their own. We have tried LOT’S of things and we will continue to do so but my country will not suffer to help Turkey.

Again, my point was that I will help only if Turkey takes steps forward and even then, I will think of my country first before thinking of Turkey. I won't help at the expense of my country. Those that deserve to be helped or want to move on will be shown unlimited support though.

It will be the other way around. Turks everywhere will have to work their asses (along with us) to get this issue settled, there will be NO HIGHWAY OPTION.

Pretty simple. The Turks won't just take a few steps forward (which is the highway option), they will have to work hard to change all they've done. Material losses aren't their main problems right now, believe me. They have lot's more to think about.

Being moral, sympathetic, etc. is great and right but being simply stupid is something else. We aren’t dealing with Tibet here, we’re dealing with Turkey.

Tibet is a mostly peaceful place famous for it's Buddhism while Turkey is a totally different picture. I mean we have to know who our enemy is, what must be done, and never hang our heads or else the Turks will immediately take advantage of us. We aren't dealing with a peaceful nation. We must be demanding to have a better future, both as Turks and Armenians, and not taking proper steps forward, being sympathetic and moralistic will show how illiterate and stupid we are. Justice isn't very easy to gain but that's my goal and I'm not accepting anything else not only as a pure Armenian but as a human being.

Hope you got my point.

[Sako]

Ok my eyes are open and I wan to provide "excellent views", I just dont know what the frack you're talking about. You seem very confused yourself to be talking about 'confused' Turks...

Dude, change your tone of voice then maybe you'll understand something. I wasn't blaming or offending you. Moving on, what makes you think I'm the one confused? You need to open your mouth for me to understand you. I'm not sitting around a table with you. I hate it when people do this.

[lal]

Lal, are you aware that whenever i mention the issues about confrontation and accept the sins of Ittihadist-Kemalist, as a nationalist always do, you put the table "land issue". Isnt your argument valid for AG recognition? "If you recognize AG, Armenians will demand land". I didnt state a single word about land. Please, do not deflect my words.

Also: I didnt mention "Kurd Genocide". Yes, huge crimes commited against Kurd people, but those werent genocide. I mentioned Dersim Genocide.

Lal, do you know the fallacy of False Dilemma (Black/White Fallacy)? Please read it.

You can find a source in Turkish: http://www.safsatakilavuzu.com/safsa...ornekler-2.htm

Even that solution can make nationalist angry lal. So by making your ideas soft, you cannot get rid of angry reactions.

you are an extremest. turkey can never come to your line. you will always be considered as a traitor even an anarchist ,provocater by 99% of the turks. this is for sure.ı cant openly declare a war against the monster system of the state.

but ı am also a confused person . ı dont know what ı am, and how ı must think.may be ı am not a smart person, but believe me,ı am talking with my heart and ı always work to be a good person .ı hate fights, ı want love to go around everywhere.ı am a sensitive person. ı can cry very easily for anybody.

ı have some very clear opinions. ı think islam is the real sickness of turks.no real muslim, on the contrary of what they claim,can be a good person.they only work to satisfy allah not humans.

ı think kemalizm fueled with islam is indeed a sick fachist ideology. but ı think ataturk was a great man--and also most handsome man--of his time. he lived and worked for this country. he did what was needed at that time. but today this ideology certainly have to be changed.

ı love armenians, ı can feel the pain,and ı want the AG be accepted. but ı dont want to be seen as a traitor in my country who ally with armenians who want more than the apologise.

so ı cant have a clear political world view. but ı have some opinions about some things. but as you say turkey is indeed a very difficult country to live in. and we dont have a democracy.today just few hours ago, ı was trying to defend the apologise to a islamist man, but this was not possible.

ps. is my english very bad.

lal

[Alexandros]

you are an extremest. turkey can never come to your line. you will always be considered as a traitor even an anarchist ,provocater by 99% of the turks. this is for sure.ı cant openly declare a war against the monster system of the state.

but ı am also a confused person . ı dont know what ı am, and how ı must think.may be ı am not a smart person, but believe me,ı am talking with my heart and ı always work to be a good person .ı hate fights, ı want love to go around everywhere.ı am a sensitive person. ı can cry very easily for anybody.

ı have some very clear opinions. ı think islam is the real sickness of turks.no real muslim, on the contrary of what they claim,can be a good person.they only work to satisfy allah not humans.

ı think kemalizm fueled with islam is indeed a sick fachist ideology. but ı think ataturk was a great man--and also most handsome man--of his time. he lived and worked for this country. he did what was needed at that time. but today this ideology certainly have to be changed.

ı love armenians, ı can feel the pain,and ı want the AG be accepted. but ı dont want to be seen as a traitor in my country who ally with armenians who want more than the apologise.

so ı cant have a clear political world view. but ı have some opinions about some things. but as you say turkey is indeed a very difficult country to live in. and we dont have a democracy.today just few hours ago, ı was trying to defend the apologise to a islamist man, but this was not possible.

ps. is my english very bad.

lal

lal, your english is fine.Believe me, it`s getting better and better.

[ardakilic]

you are an extremest. turkey can never come to your line. you will always be considered as a traitor even an anarchist ,provocater by 99% of the turks. this is for sure.ı cant openly declare a war against the monster system of the state.

but ı am also a confused person . ı dont know what ı am, and how ı must think.may be ı am not a smart person, but believe me,ı am talking with my heart and ı always work to be a good person .ı hate fights, ı want love to go around everywhere.ı am a sensitive person. ı can cry very easily for anybody.

ı have some very clear opinions. ı think islam is the real sickness of turks.no real muslim, on the contrary of what they claim,can be a good person.they only work to satisfy allah not humans.

ı think kemalizm fueled with islam is indeed a sick fachist ideology. but ı think ataturk was a great man--and also most handsome man--of his time. he lived and worked for this country. he did what was needed at that time. but today this ideology certainly have to be changed.

ı love armenians, ı can feel the pain,and ı want the AG be accepted. but ı dont want to be seen as a traitor in my country who ally with armenians who want more than the apologise.

so ı cant have a clear political world view. but ı have some opinions about some things. but as you say turkey is indeed a very difficult country to live in. and we dont have a democracy.today just few hours ago, ı was trying to defend the apologise to a islamist man, but this was not possible.

ps. is my english very bad.

lal

Lal, i always answer your claims word by word, but the only thing you say is i am an extremist. I dont care, maybe. I dont care to be on the extreme side but in the right side. As my abilities allow.

To claim somebody's proposition is false just because she is on extreme side; it is totally fallacious.

[Joseph]

Saco,

Thanks for your thoughtful explanation.


From a personal point of view, I want the genocide recognized because it will help foster trust and normal relations between Armenians and Turks.

Armenians will never be able to have a normal relationship with Turks/ Turkey until his occurs. While we need to move beyond the past it is the case that we also need to do this through honesty and reflection and not by ignoring the Genocide { as many Turks would like to see happen}. Armenia and Turkey might be doomed to be neighbors and I fear they will live in a cold-war type atmosphere until recognition occurs. Armenia has every reason not to trust Turkey and fear it while to status quo remains. In addition to justice, this is an issue of security for the existence of Armenia. It stands to reason that a neighbor that has victimized us can easily do it again for they have shown no remorse about past actions.

I do agree that only through Armenian efforts is this issue even at the forefront. It requires radicals to bring change, whether it is civil rights, gender rights, etc. If there is no noise, the issue would continue to fester and nothing positive will ever occur; there would be no change. The reason that the Armenian Genocide is even discussed today in Turkey is due to the Armenian diaspora's efforts. Otherwise Turkey would have been more to happy and successful in sweeping it under the rug.

That being said, Genocide recognition in Turkey is going to happen but it is going to take time. We are impatient but we can only go so far. The Turks need to come to the realization themselves.

The process is going to have to take shape by changing the current nationalist and fascist narrative that is ingrained in young minds from day one in Turkey. History books will have to change and the Turkish institutions that have constructed the fable are going to have to stop lying to the people. Slowly, this is happening.

As Turkey grows more liberal and open, it becomes a better/safer neighbor for Armenia. Both nations will benefit.


Regarding the land/compensation issue, my feelings are such: pushing for land restitution is not going to bring normalization it will only dissuade liberal voices. The issue is about human rights.

[lal]

Lal, i always answer your claims word by word, but the only thing you say is i am an extremist. I dont care, maybe. I dont care to be on the extreme side but in the right side. As my abilities allow.

To claim somebody's proposition is false just because she is on extreme side; it is totally fallacious.

ı read the things you say about ataturk and the fights in anatolia and the other genocides . ı dont want to repeat your words one by one. lets assume that ataturk was not an adorable man as we dream about him. lets assume that our fights for freedom are not as heroic as we want to believe,but so what?every nation needs to have some respect and pride about her past and establishment days,for her existance. if you say that, turks are all disgusting mongoloid barbarians, they have nothing to be proud of, how will it be?

this doesnt mean that we will not accept such an obvious crime of AG. but we need to have some defence mechanizms also. you cant condemn everything. you need to have limits.

the problem is not our past. every empire commited crimes. even usa will in the future be charged for what they did in ıraq.the problem of turkey today is the fachist systems desire not to let people think free. thats why they can endure a simple apology of few thousands.

[Edoman]

Passing the AG bill in the US is pure politics and has nothing to do with your sorrow or Turkish people accepting the genocide. We all should freaking know that by now. What is happeneing in Turkey now has nothing to do with recognition efforts and is completely about the Turkish people themselves. Its about a Turks being able to appologise even if he does not know crap about the AG. Recognition efforts can only slow this process down and pull this whole "humane" issue back into the cess pit of politics. The solution is with the people and not with any government.

If I were are an ergenekon, deep state, grey wolf or however you describe the kind of Turk you guys hate, I would never want the AG recognition efforts to stop because it would just make me and my organisation stronger.

I don’t expect the Turks to accept anything at all Hitite, in fact I don’t care what they accept after denying everything for so long. We know your marching orders from your false Idol

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/gecmisten_gunumuze/images/by/2_eng.jpg

and it would be a great mistake in our part to think that Turkey will ever change. People like Arda are exceptional Turks who know their identity/roots/religion which I have great respect and support but we as Armenians must keep things in perspective and face the realities on the ground. If you think our efforts to get US congress to pass the AG bill is strictly politics then you really are confused.
Like I have said before, this is between Armenia and US and has nothing to do with Turkey recognizing anything. I don’t want relations with Turks. I could never Trust Turks. I want this Turkish government to pay for its freaking crimes against my people and stop hurting its Armenian population. We will never allow you to get away with it; we owe this to ourselves and to our ancestors who cry from their graves for justice.