Parallel Roads

[ardakilic]

ı read the things you say about ataturk and the fights in anatolia and the other genocides . ı dont want to repeat your words one by one. lets assume that ataturk was not an adorable man as we dream about him. lets assume that our fights for freedom are not as heroic as we want to believe,but so what?every nation needs to have some respect and pride about her past and establishment days,for her existance. if you say that, turks are all disgusting mongoloid barbarians, they have nothing to be proud of, how will it be?

this doesnt mean that we will not accept such an obvious crime of AG. but we need to have some defence mechanizms also. you cant condemn everything. you need to have limits.

the problem is not our past. every empire commited crimes. even usa will in the future be charged for what they did in ıraq.the problem of turkey today is the fachist systems desire not to let people think free. thats why they can endure a simple apology of few thousands.

Lay, you are catched by your words.

And again and again, i repeat: DO NOT PUT WORDS ON MY MOUTH! (Ağzıma laf yakıştırma-in Turkish).

I didnt say "turks are all disgusting mongoloid barbarians" or even implied. To be proud of your history and nation, you dont need lies. Reality is enough for this. You tacitly accept those Kemalist lies is invented to make people proud.

Yes every nation-state commited similar crimes maybe not much bloodier.

What do you think about fascist system that you call comes from? Can it come from Ittihadists and Kemalists?

[lal]

I don’t expect the Turks to accept anything at all Hitite, in fact I don’t care what they accept after denying everything for so long. We know your marching orders from your false Idol

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/gecmisten_gunumuze/images/by/2_eng.jpg

and it would be a great mistake in our part to think that Turkey will ever change. People like Arda are exceptional Turks who know their identity/roots/religion which I have great respect and support but we as Armenians must keep things in perspective and face the realities on the ground. If you think our efforts to get US congress to pass the AG bill is strictly politics then you really are confused.
Like I have said before, this is between Armenia and US and has nothing to do with Turkey recognizing anything. I don’t want relations with Turks. I could never Trust Turks. I want this Turkish government to pay for its freaking crimes against my people and stop hurting its Armenian population. We will never allow you to get away with it; we owe this to ourselves and to our ancestors who cry from their graves for justice.

mr edoman,

ı cant understand how you will bring justice, if you dont want relations with turks. what can you do to turkey? what will happen when USA president accepts the genocide.you will be happy as an american armenian. enjoy it few days.a short period of tensions between usa and turkey,which we are used to in recent years. closing incirlik base as a response from turkey. and in few years normilised relationships again. do you expect usa declaring war on turkey if turkey dont admit the genocide.

you dont want a solution. okay. we have too many of people who think like you here. we try to change this.

[Steph]

mr edoman,

ı cant understand how you will bring justice, if you dont want relations with turks. what can you do to turkey? what will happen when USA president accepts the genocide.you will be happy as an american armenian. enjoy it few days.a short period of tensions between usa and turkey,which we are used to in recent years. closing incirlik base as a response from turkey. and in few years normilised relationships again. do you expect usa declaring war on turkey if turkey dont admit the genocide.

you dont want a solution. okay. we have too many of people who think like you here. we try to change this.

lal, you recognise the AG, but how did it arise? You're a very proud turk and seem to want to deny others pride in their nation, that's ironic because turkey has little to be proud of........until it faces it's past, admits it's crimes and recognises all it has done. Righteous turks already do this, how you call them traitors I don't understand. You struggle between "what you know" and "what you've been told" by the system, break out of that crysallis and fly.

[ardakilic]

because turkey has little to be proud of........

This is not true Steph, Turkish history doesnot consist of Ittihadists and Kemalists.

[lal]

lal, you recognise the AG, but how did it arise? You're a very proud turk and seem to want to deny others pride in their nation, that's ironic because turkey has little to be proud of........until it faces it's past, admits it's crimes and recognises all it has done. Righteous turks already do this, how you call them traitors I don't understand. You struggle between "what you know" and "what you've been told" by the system, break out of that crysallis and fly.

you dont pursuade people to civilise and face the truth by telling them that they have nothing to be proud of. you just focus on your subject, inform , and demand justice and when you do this, you help them to feel that this will not be their loosing.

this is a very difficult pill to take for a turk. you cant exactly understand it. they must not think that they are forced to accept it. they must think they do everything themselves.

so far it was a great success of armenians who kept the issue alive. but ı think we are in a very critical stage. hoping that by some more pushings turks will accept it, is a wrong assumption. it is now turkish peoples turn. if we cant succeed now,we may not be able to try it again.

if they really want something to come out,armenians must just stay quite at this moment.

[ardakilic]

if they really want something to come out,armenians must just stay quite at this moment.

When shall they speak? Which time is the fittest? When do you suggest them to talk?

If not here, nowhere; if not now, never; if not me, nobody...

[Joseph]

This is another impasse. If Armenians do nothing, the denialists have won and both Turks and Armenians lose for different reasons in varying degrees. If Armenians continue, liberals in Turkey lose and Turks and Armenians lose for different reasons in varying degrees.

[ardakilic]

If Armenians continue, liberals in Turkey lose and Turks and Armenians lose for different reasons in varying degrees.

I dont think so, Joseph. 20 years ago, nobody dare to talk about "Armenian question". Thanks to international recognition, today, at least somebody talk.

Another example: 20 years ago, "Turkish state official view" about Kurds that "They are actually Turks of highlands. Because of when they walk on the snow, the "kurd, kard" sound appeared and they are called Kurd". I am not joking. Seriously they defend this position.

By the war in Kurdistan goes, even the most nationalist in Turkey cannot deny that Kurds are distinct ethnicity. Of course i do not defend the war, i simply try to explain that if you dont struggle they will go further.

Fascism is not an ideology that you can accord. If you try to accord, they will be more aggressive.

[Sako]

you are an extremest. turkey can never come to your line. you will always be considered as a traitor even an anarchist ,provocater by 99% of the turks. this is for sure.ı cant openly declare a war against the monster system of the state.

We can . We have our own ways of war and not just with guns. That method never works.

but ı am also a confused person . ı dont know what ı am, and how ı must think.may be ı am not a smart person, but believe me,ı am talking with my heart and ı always work to be a good person .ı hate fights, ı want love to go around everywhere.ı am a sensitive person. ı can cry very easily for anybody.

Lal Jan, all you have to do is remember that you aren't a Turk ... YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON, A HUMAN BEING. Look at me, nothing can pretty much hurt me mentally. My country is the world, I don't stand only by Armenians. I'm not a nationalist but love my country more then all the nationalists put together ever could. I judge all, including my country, with an equal eye without caring what anyone believes. That's why I feel so free. Get yourself out of your cage. Stop feeling like your responsible for EVERYTHING that happens. You are not a bad person Lal so let the esek oglu eseks out there feel like xxxx. Don't let ANYONE make you feel inferior, that includes me . If I ever have, forgive me. These conversations put us all on the edge.

ı have some very clear opinions. ı think islam is the real sickness of turks.no real muslim, on the contrary of what they claim,can be a good person.they only work to satisfy allah not humans.

You mean themselves ... There are so many good muslims and if you doubt that, you are offending me and many of my good friends here and around the world.

ı think kemalizm fueled with islam is indeed a sick fachist ideology. but ı think ataturk was a great man--and also most handsome man--of his time. he lived and worked for this country. he did what was needed at that time. but today this ideology certainly have to be changed.

He did good and bad things and I respect your decision, really. I hope you can say the same to others. Your decision and views are yours, we're just talking here and forgive anyone that said anything wrong that might've hurt your feelings. Let's move on.

ı love armenians, ı can feel the pain,and ı want the AG be accepted. but ı dont want to be seen as a traitor in my country who ally with armenians who want more than the apologise.

Forget your country. Just by saying you are with us makes you a traitor. Really, all you do is set an example and show what a real Turkish person should be like but not all will listen to you. There have been so many great Turks and I respect them all. They are the nation just like you Lal. If it weren't for all the special Turks like you, Turkey would be a useless state filled with lies and lunacy. I am proud of you as a person rather then first as an Armenian. We are human beings before anything else but we should also remember where we are from, judging everyone equally no matter how painful it may be. Finally, to ask for more then an apology doesn't make us evil Lal, it simply seems to for some reason hurt you.

ps. is my english very bad.

No Lal but when you don't write a single word back it simply shows how much you don't care what I say . And please don't say you don't understand what I'm saying, your English isn't THAT bad. You can at least say something.

ı read the things you say about ataturk and the fights in anatolia and the other genocides . ı dont want to repeat your words one by one. lets assume that ataturk was not an adorable man as we dream about him. lets assume that our fights for freedom are not as heroic as we want to believe,but so what?every nation needs to have some respect and pride about her past and establishment days,for her existance. if you say that, turks are all disgusting mongoloid barbarians, they have nothing to be proud of, how will it be?

Lal, accepting what happened will make you feel more proud, trust me. Plus, there is lots to be proud of, we're not saying Turkey is completely evil. Many of its leaders and citizens are though. Even if there wasn't much to be proud of, you still shouldn't artificially make your country seem better then it is. I feel and understand you though, 100%.

you dont want a solution. okay. we have too many of people who think like you here. we try to change this.

Lal jan, relax, we aren't nationalists talking to you here. Calm down and let's continue, we all want peace, no one want's war.

lal, you recognise the AG, but how did it arise? You're a very proud turk and seem to want to deny others pride in their nation, that's ironic because turkey has little to be proud of........until it faces it's past, admits it's crimes and recognises all it has done. Righteous turks already do this, how you call them traitors I don't understand. You struggle between "what you know" and "what you've been told" by the system, break out of that crysallis and fly.

I think she has more of a problem between what she KNOWS is right and what she thinks at this very moment. She thinks that she has a choice between her country and accepting the Genocide. She's having a war in herself, I know what that feels like, let's be more understanding. We might be making it worse for her guys. She's the only girl here from what I can see. Quoting James Brown, "This is a mans world but it wouldn't be nothing without a women or a girl" so let's not scare off the only girl here . Like I said before Lal, you are a person, a good human being before anything else. If you aren't a good person first and foremost, you can never be a good leader, a good minister, a good student, worker, patriot, or anything else. Right now though, your country doesn't deserve you, period.

And PS, we must talk. If we didn't in the past nothing would happen today. You wouldn't be in this forum right now believing what we say. I think what you mean is "Let's calm down" not STOP TALKING. That's like spanking us for bad behavior, lol. It is a crucial time to act, time doesn't wait for us. Let's just be ... catious. That's all there is to it.

[Sako]

Saco,

Thanks for your thoughtful explanation.

From a personal point of view, I want the genocide recognized because it will help foster trust and normal relations between Armenians and Turks.

Armenians will never be able to have a normal relationship with Turks/ Turkey until his occurs. While we need to move beyond the past it is the case that we also need to do this through honesty and reflection and not by ignoring the Genocide { as many Turks would like to see happen}. Armenia and Turkey might be doomed to be neighbors and I fear they will live in a cold-war type atmosphere until recognition occurs. Armenia has every reason not to trust Turkey and fear it while to status quo remains. In addition to justice, this is an issue of security for the existence of Armenia. It stands to reason that a neighbor that has victimized us can easily do it again for they have shown no remorse about past actions.

I do agree that only through Armenian efforts is this issue even at the forefront. It requires radicals to bring change, whether it is civil rights, gender rights, etc. If there is no noise, the issue would continue to fester and nothing positive will ever occur; there would be no change. The reason that the Armenian Genocide is even discussed today in Turkey is due to the Armenian diaspora's efforts. Otherwise Turkey would have been more to happy and successful in sweeping it under the rug.

That being said, Genocide recognition in Turkey is going to happen but it is going to take time. We are impatient but we can only go so far. The Turks need to come to the realization themselves.

The process is going to have to take shape by changing the current nationalist and fascist narrative that is ingrained in young minds from day one in Turkey. History books will have to change and the Turkish institutions that have constructed the fable are going to have to stop lying to the people. Slowly, this is happening.

As Turkey grows more liberal and open, it becomes a better/safer neighbor for Armenia. Both nations will benefit.

Regarding the land/compensation issue, my feelings are such: pushing for land restitution is not going to bring normalization it will only dissuade liberal voices. The issue is about human rights.

Joseph, thanks a lot for replying. You write only once in a while but all your posts are worthwhile .

I agree with everything you say and I won't take too much of your time. There is just one thing we should remember. When we talk of Armenian-Turkish relations, there won't be any Armenian-Turkish relations unless the AG issue is dealt with properly. Also, I've said this so many times, there are so many things Turkey can and must do that don't fall under the category of "compensation". Lands and all won't be given back without another war, GOD FORBID, but Turkey will have losses, no matter WHAT happens. I can even give you a practical list pointing out step by step what's going to happen after the AG is recognized (better then I already have somewhere else in this or another thread).

Anyways, I don't want to write another book, lol, so this is where I'll stop. I might get confusing. Thanks for everything again Joseph, glad to know we have people like you and many others to talk to in these sometimes difficult times. It's in my list of future goals to meet all of you one day .