Parallel Roads

[Joseph]

I know something about what Kars people think about the border being closed. Amberin Zaman, an Armenian columnist visited the city and interviewed people. Most of them dont agree to state policy about borders and also Kars municipal mayor is declared "traitor" by nationalists.

This Ani subject shows how Turkish state is awful. State claims its real name is Anı (meaning memory in Turkish) and no relations with Armenians.

Amberin Zaman is half Turkish/ half pakistani. She is also the writer in the Economist for anything to do with Turkey. She used to tow the denialist line but has taken a turn in the last few years. I belive she is also married to a US diplomat.

[Gavur]

you are right ,ı must not try to solve the political problems as if ı know everything well,who am ı? it is none of my business.armenian ,azeri,,turkish governments can solve it themselves. ı sound stupit offering solutions. but ı want real peace, and people loving each other again,thats why ı try to offer something. not to beat you.but sometimes ı can get very defensive and bad,ı know,this is my character,ı dont like to be attacked.

100 years has passed, but many of you still speak some turkish. this is exactly why ı understand the pain. ı never think armenians are foreigners. maybe you will get very offended again, but ı personally consider armenians almost like christian turks.

ı dont say these words to make you people love me, but ı really started to realise that it is my duty to work for the armenians, in turkey. as long as accepting the genocide officially, may bring some threats for turkish state, like compansations and giving lands, they may never accept it. but ı individually one more time ,and very sincerely apologise for the things happened from armenians.

it is very difficult for me to take a stand completely opposite of the state, unlike mr arda .ı cant go that further. but ı simply dont buy the things deniers talk about. not humanistic and not logical , and not even for the benefit of turkey.



lal

Most of us would rather have a reliable enemy rather then unreliable and fickle ally,you are a good example of the latter.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Most of us would rather have a reliable enemy rather then unreliable and fickle ally,you are a good example of the latter.

I agree, but I also can understand people like lal. After life of a brainwashing they try to move by their consiens which is very hard in society such as turkey. You see they have no support even from closest people that must be tough. We must appreciate also their effort.

[Sako]

I think Lal simply got lost in our words, had a rough day, and then spilled out all her thoughts without much care. She's said what she means many times so let's not turn her into our enemy or anything just because of what she said now (although she's COMPLETELY wrong), I won't be able to forgive anyone here if they do that, I am dead serious. I understand what she means and I think she simply got caught up in her thoughts. I can imagine her situation, I've been through crap like that, haven't we all? Let's be a bit more understanding but Lal, you have to be VERY careful from now on and remember where you are. EVERYONE is your friend here, we all are going through a lot, it's not just you. So let's all relax and think twice before saying anything, that's my humble request.

[Steph]

I think Lal simply got lost in our words, had a rough day, and then spilled out all her thoughts without much care. She's said what she means many times so let's not turn her into our enemy or anything just because of what she said now (although she's COMPLETELY wrong), I won't be able to forgive anyone here if they do that, I am dead serious. I understand what she means and I think she simply got caught up in her thoughts. I can imagine her situation, I've been through crap like that, haven't we all? Let's be a bit more understanding but Lal, you have to be VERY careful from now on and remember where you are. EVERYONE is your friend here, we all are going through a lot, it's not just you. So let's all relax and think twice before saying anything, that's my humble request.

Saco jan, the problem with lal is that she understands that she has been indoctrinated since an early age with all this kemal ataturd stuff and quasi-pan-turanism. She knows it's all a crock. She recognises the Genocide and empathises with Armenians, she also feels isolated in turkey. She spurns and nearly mocks turkish members of this forum such as Arda as "traitors". So, she has proven to a degree that she has a functioning mind, qualified from university so has some grey cells, she openly questions her government, she signed the apology and then worries about governmental reaction. Therefore she shows her awareness of the "illness" within turkish society. If I lived in a land where I was scared about official response to a protest I had joined, I would seriously be thinking there was something fundamentally wrong with where I lived and consider it time to "get the hell out of Dodge".But, for God's sake, she still spouts the bile that has been drummed into her by turkey, for that she should be ashamed. I would be more forgiving of an illiterate hill farmer who said what lal says, he could honestly claim to know no better. At the end of the day, who wants to continue to "turn the other cheek", at some point, your cheeks are too bloody red from being slapped. This isn't a classroom and despite numerous requests from many people and offers of internet sources to help change her mind, lal continues in the same vein. This has provoked responses from members who are then banned because lal cries "wolf" and we seem to fall for those feminine charms, who knows she may actually be Abdul in a beard and kaftan!

[Sako]

Saco jan, the problem with lal is that she understands that she has been indoctrinated since an early age with all this kemal ataturd stuff and quasi-pan-turanism. She knows it's all a crock. She recognises the Genocide and empathises with Armenians, she also feels isolated in turkey. She spurns and nearly mocks turkish members of this forum such as Arda as "traitors". So, she has proven to a degree that she has a functioning mind, qualified from university so has some grey cells, she openly questions her government, she signed the apology and then worries about governmental reaction. Therefore she shows her awareness of the "illness" within turkish society. If I lived in a land where I was scared about official response to a protest I had joined, I would seriously be thinking there was something fundamentally wrong with where I lived and consider it time to "get the hell out of Dodge".

And I'm sure we all take this into consideration. Remeber that, Lal jan.

But, for God's sake, she still spouts the bile that has been drummed into her by turkey, for that she should be ashamed. I would be more forgiving of an illiterate hill farmer who said what lal says, he could honestly claim to know no better. At the end of the day, who wants to continue to "turn the other cheek", at some point, your cheeks are too bloody red from being slapped. This isn't a classroom and despite numerous requests from many people and offers of internet sources to help change her mind, lal continues in the same vein. This has provoked responses from members who are then banned because lal cries "wolf" and we seem to fall for those feminine charms, who knows she may actually be Abdul in a beard and kaftan!

I doubt that Steph but I get what you mean. *Sigh* I really don't know what to say anymore to her. I really want to make her feel better and help out in any and EVERY way I can but ... ... ... I really don't know what to do anymore. I know I'm like the youngest one here but it seems like when I try to soothe her, I become everyone elses enemy or seem like the principal here. I'm basically defending what she says even though what she says is wrong at times. I'm sorry guys, really, I don't know what to do. I just really don't want her to go through all she goes through, it makes me feel terrible. And when I know I can't do much, it makes me feel even worse. Further more, when she says something like this, it simply breaks my heart. It's like everything I said or did in the past was in vain. I almost feel like I'M the one betraying all of you. I don't know if I have to shout at her, defend her, or make her feel better. I'm sorry.

Lal, I want you to read this last paragraph carefully.

I don't regret anything I've written and I would write a few books if I knew they would help you but when Steph says we can't show our cheeks everytime, he isn't wrong at all. We can't be on your side no matter what you say. That will be selfish. When we say something different that you might not like or understand, you talk to us like we're your enemies or rivals. It's either we accept whatever you say like good little boys or your going to spank us. We aren't little boys, Lal. We are your true friends and you know why? Because we don't agree with you everytime you say something. We try to help and understand you, not just blindly agree with you. The people that will always support you blindly aren't your friends, they are your worst enemies and they will bring you down when you least expect it, remember that, no matter where you are. Turkey did and still does this. There is a saying that goes on the lines of "Those that talk sweetly to you all the time aren't your friends" and I completely agree. One who talks about your mistakes more then all the great things you have done is your best friend no matter who he is or where he is from. Read my signature, Lal, and you'll understand. Why do you think I chose it out of all the other great phrases? I myself would take a bullet for a friend but I realized after going through a lot that you can't give your heart to everyone because not everyone will appreciate what you do/say. I'm still making that mistake here at times. Now, reconsider who your friends and enemies are and you might understand why we are all here or who we are to you. If you don't then I simply wasted my time writing to you throughout these threads.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Hey guys lets open a new thread and call it "lal"

[Sako]

Or maybe Vahe, ?

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Or maybe Vahe, ?

well, my humble person is not so controversial on this forum, dont you think you kinda exagerated?

[lal]

And I'm sure we all take this into consideration. Remeber that, Lal jan.



I doubt that Steph but I get what you mean. *Sigh* I really don't know what to say anymore to her. I really want to make her feel better and help out in any and EVERY way I can but ... ... ... I really don't know what to do anymore. I know I'm like the youngest one here but it seems like when I try to soothe her, I become everyone elses enemy or seem like the principal here. I'm basically defending what she says even though what she says is wrong at times. I'm sorry guys, really, I don't know what to do. I just really don't want her to go through all she goes through, it makes me feel terrible. And when I know I can't do much, it makes me feel even worse. Further more, when she says something like this, it simply breaks my heart. It's like everything I said or did in the past was in vain. I almost feel like I'M the one betraying all of you. I don't know if I have to shout at her, defend her, or make her feel better. I'm sorry.

Lal, I want you to read this last paragraph carefully.

I don't regret anything I've written and I would write a few books if I knew they would help you but when Steph says we can't show our cheeks everytime, he isn't wrong at all. We can't be on your side no matter what you say. That will be selfish. When we say something different that you might not like or understand, you talk to us like we're your enemies or rivals. It's either we accept whatever you say like good little boys or your going to spank us. We aren't little boys, Lal. We are your true friends and you know why? Because we don't agree with you everytime you say something. We try to help and understand you, not just blindly agree with you. The people that will always support you blindly aren't your friends, they are your worst enemies and they will bring you down when you least expect it, remember that, no matter where you are. Turkey did and still does this. There is a saying that goes on the lines of "Those that talk sweetly to you all the time aren't your friends" and I completely agree. One who talks about your mistakes more then all the great things you have done is your best friend no matter who he is or where he is from. Read my signature, Lal, and you'll understand. Why do you think I chose it out of all the other great phrases? I myself would take a bullet for a friend but I realized after going through a lot that you can't give your heart to everyone because not everyone will appreciate what you do/say. I'm still making that mistake here at times. Now, reconsider who your friends and enemies are and you might understand why we are all here or who we are to you. If you don't then I simply wasted my time writing to you throughout these threads.

Saco,

the only reason ı continue to write here is, joseph still doesnt ban me and you still encourage me to continue to write. but ı believe that ı contribute to this site . it must be interesting to read my contradictions.because ı honestly show all characteristics of a typical turk(except my hatered towards islam). ı know who armenians are, ı know how they contributed to ottomans for centuries, ı know that armenians are not terrorists , but contributes to the society they live in , and ı know armenians never deserved to be totally destroyed by turks.you see ı never conradicted myself about my above words.

ı also claimed many times that ı am disgusted with religons and nationalizm and ı wanted loose borders, ı wanted armenians back in anatolia,open borders etc.it is, this part ı contradict myself many times. sometimes ı write friendly and many times ı write the opposite.

there are many reasons for this. when they ask me who am ı. how do ı answer. ı say ı am a turk right? if ı am a turk ,ı need to like turks. when ı look at the mirror to myself, ı need to see a beautiful person.No?for example your family can be not so good, but you cant turn your back to them.right? they are your family. this is something like that.

ı am very well aware that turkish government is trying to hide the facts. otherwise why should they hack the apologising site. why dont they let different cultures live freely, but try to make a homogenous society artificially? ı know these.

but ı am a turk at the bottom. even if ı dislike very much the turkish states politics, ı still love my country. for example , ı hate islam, but ı belong to a muslim culture. even if ı hate it, ı feel pain when muslims are attacked by israelis or americans a little more than other crualities to nonmuslims.

dont expect me to join to a chorus of cursing,degrading ataturk and accepting all the demands of your people. ı wont.never!

armenians in armenia like yourself, armenians in turkey and diaspora armenians who left turkey recently and some part of turkish people who accept the pasts mistakes, sincerely want to hug each other. but armenians who left turkey long time ago and became american armenians,french armenians or lebenese armenians and the nationalist turks denying the past, really dont want any kind of reconciliations.they will not let this happen untill they beat the other side completely. they have no limits, no grey areas.

there are too many problems between us. armenian for me is much closer than azeri as a cultural characteristic. but azeri's hate towards armenian is beyond imagination. and no turkish state will ever prefer armenia instead of azerbeycan. you must rely on my opinion on this. so this means borders will not be opened.ı dont live in dreams world.

armenian will always demand the acception of AG. ı can guarantee you, in state level this will not happen. so, another great even bigger obsacle.

armenians will think the acceptence of AG by usa president or france will force turkey to accept it. actually it will make the impossible even more impossible then.

armenian will consider our great leader Atatürk as a criminal genocider enemy. no turk ,let the state aside can ever accept this.excluding few extremest and terrorists ,like we have one here.

so, things are easier for people who want this hatred to go on.

ı think you do the best thing in this site. instead of solving all the problems, we need to talk each other as civilised humans,realise that we all are humans have feelings,share our experiences, and move slowly forward. ı cant see a simple solution.

my anger comes from the bad words towards ataturk.you have to understand this.if ı say ı deny AG,you will feel horrible,it is the same for me. he is my hero. he is turks hero. this is not necassaraly kemalizm. he is the symbol of our foundation. hiding the facts of past has nothing to do with ataturk. ataturk did what he had to do in his time. he spent his all life for an ideal.ı am sure if ataturk was alive today,he would not continue the same politics . conditions are changing every moment. time dont stay the same.you need to change politics.he would apologise from the armenians officially. he would force azeri and armenian to make peace. he would open the borders.he would constitue a confederation of armenia,azerbeycan, turkey. he would invite all armenians left turkey back. he would join christmas celebrations. ataturk was a very forward thinking genius. he would do everything possible we dream among us,today.he was not an idiot like all the other leaders came after him. inönü and all of the others ,ı have no respect them.they turned our beautiful country into a burnt out hell. they are the ones costituted this fachist history, full of lies. they tortured the christians and sent all of them away by using pschologic methods without any reasons, not atatürk. if ataturk was alive, he would have kept the remaining hundreds of thousand of christians in the country and use them as a positive advantage for turkeys relationships with the western world.

those christians were very well turkish citizens. what was their fault?they were christian turks. ı hate people who sent them away long after the wars ended.this was not needed at all.

ı will not say that ı am sorry for anything ı wrote. this is your site . and if you ban me, ı can go away. no problem.ı already wrote everything ı wanted to. what can ı add new?ı only wrote what ı think and what ı feel. otherwise it wouldnt be interesting. and when ı say ''ermenileri seviyıorum'', ı mean it. but near future dont look so bright to me.

arkadaşın,Abdul.with beard and kaftan on.(does this make any difference really?)