Baby Steps

[Alexandros]

Re: Baby Steps

I agree with Saco.


@ UrMistake

To start a war is actually pretty easy.The question is what would the consequences be out of it and for how long time would the war continue before it ends; in what situation would the losing - or the winning - side be...those are some questions you have to ask yourself before you go to war.

I personally think that going to war should always be the last option, especially in Greece`s case since we don`t have a strong ally behind us.Had we had the strong relations, as Armenia has with Russia then maybe, just maybe we could have used that to our country`s interest(Turkey was about to invade Armenia back in the 90s but Russia told Turkey to back off which they did).But then again, if you could solve problems in a peaceful way - whether it`s the Aegean dispute or the Cyprus issue then I think that should be pursued.

Sometimes I wonder why Greece is a member of NATO since it hasn`t been to our favour.We are buying all these weapons from USA but it doesn`t give us anything back.We should really ask ourselves if NATO really gives us that "protection" in case of a "war", especially in a war against Turkey, although USA would never allow such a thing.USA`s weapon industry is making a lot of money because of the disputes between Greece and Turkey....it`s probably in USA`s interest that there are some tensions in the Aegean sea or not to mention the Cyprus issue so that we should continue to buy their bloody weapons.Even the "Annan plan" for Cyprus was written to favour Turkey and of course USA.We all know that USA wants to see Turkey join the EU in order break up the Franco-German axis; Turkey`s good relations with the U.K means that these two countries could form an alliance within the EU against the Franco-German axis.Anyway, thank God that the Cypriots voted against the Annan plan.

Remember the Imia crisis in 1996?When Greece showed maps to the then President Bill Clinton which showed that Imia clearly belongs to Greece he didn`t care.USA said something like that Imia neither belongs to Greece nor to Turkey; for USA it was just another way to create more problems in the Aegean sea between Greece and Turkey.However a full scale war between Greece and Turkey would not be alllowed by USA since it would pretty much destroy NATO`s image as a "strong" alliance that has a "strong" unity...

And lastly, the best thing that could happen Greece and Cyprus would be that if the EU created a common EU-army which is actually where we are heading at...it will take some time but if you read in the new EU-constitution - "Treaty of Lisbon" - it says, "the Common Security and Defence Policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence when the European Council acting unanimously so decides."

Suddenly, the Aegean dispute and the Cyprus issue becomes even more a "European" problem between the EU and Turkey instead of a bilateral problem between Greece/Cyprus on the one hand and Turkey on the other hand.

[Sako]

Re: Baby Steps

i can tell,we are able to make bussines as our grandfathers did before AG.
But dont mix bussines with personal intrests.We will see always Turks as enemys.

That is Ur Mistake my friend ! A smart person will never define an entire people as this or that because in every country, including our own, there are good and bad people. To tell you the truth, some of our biggest enemies are within our borders right now as we speak, not only in Turkey, and I feel we haven't been giving them the attention they deserve.

They have cross the line far many times and long ago.

And we will never forget that. Only a fool would forget. But neither should we hate the Turks as a whole. I can give you more reasons then you can remember to back my point.

Even if u find people that talk abouy peace,it will never hapen cause from both sides u will find people like me.

And on both sides you will always find people like ME as well, yekhpayr . There are always two sides to a coin.

War is the only tool of nagotations we can have with them.

Blood never leads to peace. Blood only leads to more blood. Right now, we have a more powerful and effective weapon in our hands and if you stopped aiming your gun alone at all the Turks in the world, you would see it and realize how much it can help us ... more then any amount of guns ever could. This weapon doesn't take lives, it gives us our lives back...

Humanity even in UN havent find a way to settle things it is anarchy between nations and army is the only thing that keeps order in the world like it or not.

True, the UN does go through a lot of problems but not because it's trying to help one country but rather because it's trying to settle the problems of ALL the countries in the world. You brought up a bad example, bro. What the world doesn't understand is that everyone has to work together to get anywhere. If every one of us watered our garden, a lot of beautiful scents would replace all the gunpowder flying around nowadays. If you wage war against Turkey and all the other countries wage war against each other to deal with their issues then NATURALLY the UN will have no peaceful method to settle any problems. But if we all use our brains instead of our newly polished guns and take a look at what's going on then the UN would have a much easier time handling all these different problems. Guns aren't always the answer to the difficult questions.

The problems start from within us my friend ... from within us.

[UrMistake]

Re: Baby Steps

i can tell,we are able to make bussines as our grandfathers did before AG.
But dont mix bussines with personal intrests.We will see always Turks as enemys.
They have cross the line far many times and long ago.
Even if u find people that talk abouy peace,it will never hapen cause from both sides u will find people like me War is the only tool of nagotations we can have with them.
Humanity even in UN havent find a way to settle things it is anarchy between nations and army is the only thing that keeps order in the world like it or not.

[Sako]

Re: Baby Steps

Just wanted to mention that a special film will be screening here in Armenia (at around 9:30 if I'm not mistaken, on April 24th) called Neretsek Mez Hayer or Forgive us Armenians. The commercial alone made my hair stand on end so I urge everyone to watch it if they can. You can see it on SHANT.

There are many things you don't know ... many things that haven't come out of Turkey. Definitely watch this film and I think your views on Turkey's New and Old Generation will change.

[Sako]

Re: Baby Steps

Kardes Turkuler (translates something like Brotherhood Songs), sings in all languages spoken in Turkey. Turkish, Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, Roma, Laz etc. For an Armenian song they sing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbWfz-g6TJ8

Haven't heard the song and won't probably understand it even if I do, lol. Is it about the AG? The song I'm talking about is completely about the AG...

I'm not talking about Turks singing with Armenians or slightly supporting them. I'm talking about Turks singing solo about the AG itself. If I'm wrong and there really isn't anything to worry about (which we can see very clearly in Turkey, lol) then the singer simply didn't want anyone to know that HE personally sang that song. All the same, it's a step forward and I'm happy to know we're moving on gradually.

Peace

[may]

Re: Baby Steps

Because he's a Turk and lives in Turkey. This song is a very powerful song with powerful lyrics so imagine a Turk singing about how his forefathers murdered 1.5 million Armenians. Turkish officials would hang him and if they didn't, some retard would pull out a gun and assassinate him while he was walking down the road.

Nonsense...

Kardes Turkuler (translates something like Brotherhood Songs), sings in all languages spoken in Turkey. Turkish, Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, Roma, Laz etc. For an Armenian song they sing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbWfz-g6TJ8

Erkan Ogur made an album with Djivan Gasparyan, who as far as I hear shows a strong support for AG. For a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILw7HZfizL8

Both Kardes Turkuler and Erkan Ogur openly did their albums, they are very popular in Turkey, nobody killed them so far. This does not necessarily mean people can do whatever in Turkey happily and without any barriers. Actually, I do not feel good to give their examples as if everything is allright, that would not lie in the same course of what these people are trying to achieve, but it will lie in the course of the authorities who thinks such examples can white-wash their practices. Kardes Turkuler faced a lot of problems to release their video for their Kurish songs years before. In terms of the power of the lyrics, the singer would not be the only person to admit AG. There are people who are advocating the same in Turkey, yes, with a lot of troubles but at the end, picture is not as evil as you draw. Death threats is not a oppression technique of Turks only.

Democracy in Turkey is a struggle of people like anywhere else in the world. And in this big picture, Armenian problem is just a minor issue, do not overestimate your influence. I am sorry but I am sick of this overall attitude of democracy fighting, as if it is THE regime that will surely make the world better place. It would do it by now if it has any wonder.

note: The post was edited to adress the song lyrics' impact.

[Sako]

Re: Baby Steps

Sorry guys, been away for awhile.

I don't know why, can you please tell me Saco?

Because he's a Turk and lives in Turkey. This song is a very powerful song with powerful lyrics so imagine a Turk singing about how his forefathers murdered 1.5 million Armenians. Turkish officials would hang him and if they didn't, some retard would pull out a gun and assassinate him while he was walking down the road.

Hello,I am new in this forum and sorry for my bad english.

I am Turkish and I wanted to say a big sorry to all of you,hope you don't think all of us are prisoners of what is sometimes being dictated on us. I must say for a very long time I was not even interested in this issue and thinking are these armenians crazy that after such a long time they still have grudge and why do they want us to except this,what they will benefit from this....
But today I have no doubt that it was a genocide which took place.And it is also a fact that turkish people will gradually realize this,there is still time but they will...Please be patient because the other way of forcing them to realize will not make a big change in the public opinion.

So this is a baby step both for my life and on relations among us.Hope a time will come we all leave those things behind and become brother countries of mutual support

Merhaba Eloweeth. Glad to have you with us. Although I agree, this is a baby step forward, I think it's a major step for you my friend. You don't have to live in lies or doubts anymore. I'm impressed that you acknowledged all this by yourself and I, as an, Armenian, thank you for your support and hope we all will be able to move forward and form a better future, without woe, without fear, without lies. It's about time ...

We have waited 93 years and all we got was baby steps. Think about this for a second, if our situations were reversed, how would you feel if someone asked you to be patient?

We'll have to wait I'm afraid my friend. You talk about reversing situations. Well lets put ourselves in the position of the Turks. There are more then 80 million Turks in Turkey alone and most have no idea what AG even stands for. It's not their fault. It's their leaders who brainwash them every day. To put everything in place, these baby steps will have to first be taken and they are being taken, much more frequently nowadays then ever before. Screaming and shouting that we didn't deserve what happened won't get us anywhere. I know it doesn't sound great but this is the whole truth. We have acheived so much today thanks to these baby steps and I urge all of us to take as many as we can. To move a mountain we'll need to move the little stones. To take major steps, we'll first need to take baby steps. This is the whole point this thread is trying to make and I am proud of the Turkish individuals working together to help us. I appreciate what they are doing and it is a mistake not to respect their endeavor. Let's not forget where the new Turkish generation lives ...

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Baby Steps

better late than never my friend

[Haykakan]

Re: Baby Steps

Hello,I am new in this forum and sorry for my bad english.

I am Turkish and I wanted to say a big sorry to all of you,hope you don't think all of us are prisoners of what is sometimes being dictated on us. I must say for a very long time I was not even interested in this issue and thinking are these armenians crazy that after such a long time they still have grudge and why do they want us to except this,what they will benefit from this....
But today I have no doubt that it was a genocide which took place.And it is also a fact that turkish people will gradually realize this,there is still time but they will...Please be patient because the other way of forcing them to realize will not make a big change in the public opinion.

So this is a baby step both for my life and on relations among us.Hope a time will come we all leave those things behind and become brother countries of mutual support

We have waited 93 years and all we got was baby steps. Think about this for a second, if our situations were reversed, how would you feel if someone asked you to be patient?

[Palavra]

Re: Baby Steps

Free Speech is a main pillar of democracy, remove it and democracy collapses, also removing rational judgment and saying the Armenian Genocide didn't happen only makes it worse.

You want to tell me selecting Bush is a rational judgement? Anyway, now not only democracy but also sanity of human kind(and quality of human judgment.)is related with AG. wow. are you sure, God is not created because of AG?

Noneed to overestimate AG. It is a historical argument not related with democracy or anyother thing.

Free speech is root of democracy and If people prefer to choose something that You do not agree(like refusing AG.), It is still democracy. infact better democracy than to force people to accept AG with lobies.