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Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

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  • #31
    Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

    Originally posted by Alexandros View Post
    Not at all.If you read my post - which I doubt you did - I qouted your post so it followed from the start to the end.But then again - I don`t think you read my post carefully and instead your argumets have started to run out so you accuse me for things that are not true.
    Stop lying.That was not what you said.You are doing everything now to try cover up your what you said.I`m going to quote your post again so everybody could see what a racist you are and not only a Turkophobe:
    And you said this also:
    Couldn`t be more clear what you said in this case.Stop lying.
    No I didn`t.Again - let me quote what I said since you didn`t read my post carefully and even took it out of context:
    Let me also add the Nuremberg Trials from 1945 to 1946 where all cameras of the world were focused and were the German people could see and listen to all the brutal things that the NAZI`s had done against their minorities not to mention when the TVs showed footages of the "Labour camps" with corpses and so on.That was not really the case with Turkish Courts-Martial of 1919-20.The Turks were not able to see what the CUP had done.There were no TVs and Radios at that time let alone many people were illiterate and couldn`t read what was going on in the newsapapers.Most of the Turks didn`t see the death marches out in the dessert...etc
    And after the Ottoman crumbled and King Constantine won the Greek elections he extended the Asia Minor campaign (which was a very stupid thing to do) although he had promised to make peace with Turkey which he didn`t.Kemal Ataturk managed to strengthen the moral of the Turkish troops and unite some of the Turks and Muslims - it was all about protecting the motherland from invadors.Having said that, in wars, very terrible things happens which is not to excuse the Genocide against the Christians.But blaming a whole population(even the current population living today) in a way you did is totally unacceptable and ridiculous.
    Yes I am.
    I hope you do - especially me!
    So you agreed with me, no?
    Err...you asked me for evidence and I gave you one link with tons of evidence.What is your problem now?You don`t know what to say now and are going off-topic: as usual.
    It really strikes me how fast you change your mind.You are full of contradictions.By the way, where`s your evidence that the whole(or the majority) Turkish or German people participated to wipe out their minorites.
    But that is the problem with you.You try to put the blame on a whole people.Try to answer my question instead about the today`s Americans and if they are responsible for what their regimes did to the Native Indians instead of repeating the same thing over and over.You sound like broken record.
    Not at all but why don`t anwser my question instead of assuming all the time.Should the today`s Americans be blamed for what their regimes did against the Native Indians?Yes or No?If you`re answer is no, then you are hypocrite because you are being selective when it comes to other people.Oh, I forgot, you said you were a Turkophobe.
    Yes in your fantasies.Where did I agree to blame the whole German people for the holocaust which you are doing all the time?You`re having monologue now again, eh?You`re running out of argumets and doing everything to try to imply that I agree with you.
    I gave an explanation regarding the German and Turkish people a long time ago and that is you can`t blame a whole people - especially not in their cases - since committing and not committing are to different things.Again, you doing the same thing as some Turkish nationalists and that is to blame all Christians for trying to rebel against the Ottoman state which is not correct.You are parrotting their arguments, and believe me, it doesn`t make you look good.
    Well, that would mean that if you and me vote for a "Christian" party that promised to do some positive things and when they get elected they do the exact opposite and start giving orders to the army to massacre the Muslim minorites - that must mean that you and me are also responsible even if this party didn`t mention anything about murdering Muslim minorities and even you and me are not involved in committing these murders against the Muslim minorities according to your so-called logic.
    Not really.I was being fair with you by quoting your post from the start to the end which I`m doing now too if you haven`t notived that yet.But quite frankly, you have no argumets left and therefore accuse me for things that are simply not true.By the way it is you who are misqouting me and try to cover up your own words and I`m not going to let that happen.
    Not at all however you could have been more clear in your post but hey, who am I to tell a Turkophobe who thinks the whole(or the majority?have you made up your mind?LOL)German and Turkish people are responsible for what their regimes did to their minorities.Again - shame on you!
    Yes you did but the problems is that you want to cover up your words because you can see that it puts you in a bad light so the "better angels inside you" tells you to be a little more moderate and word your posts in a way so it doesn`t get interpreted in a way that people would think that you blame a whole people for a Genocide which heir Government carried with the help of the army.But then there`s a "devil inside you" that thinks you should spew all your anger and frustration against the Turkish and German people and blame them for Genocides.I can see the difference - can you?
    It`s interesting though: when I asked you about ASALA and let quote mine and your posts:
    And this is your reply:



    If you don`t blame ALL Armenians for what ASALA did and you even said that you are against their means then how could you blame a whole German or Turkish people for what their regime did against their minorities?You see my point now?Just because you vote for a party doesn`t mean you approve everything they do.I mean for Christ sake, not even Israel blame the whole or the majority of the German people for what the NAZI`s did against the J_e_w_s and I haven`t heard Armenia blaming the whole or the majority of the Turkish people for what the Ottoman regime did against the Armenians.What Armenia and their lobby organizations is demanding is an apology from the Turkish Government - not from the Turkish people!
    It`s your words.Not surprisningly, you try to cover up everything by blaming me for what you said.But I quoted your posts - I even gave direct links to your posts - and that is your words.I`m not going to let you go away with it since you misinterpret my posts, misquote me and try to imply that I agree with you which wasn`t the case as I said above.You have no arguments left, your anger has taken over completely and you change your mind all the time and then blame me for what you said.Great strategy genious but it won`t work - not this time!
    Alexandros, this is becoming very tiresome. It is obvious that we sit on very opposites sides here and will never agree on this subject.
    However, you make some interesting points, throughout you state the futility of discussion with a turcophobe nearly suggesting it is a crime to be one. The news for you is that it isn't, and if you're surprised to meet one here then you're niaive.
    You accuse me of lying because I disagree with your interpretation of my posts, well there we go.
    I'm writing below the "conversation" from the relevant thread: Please sign this petition.
    Post # 329 by Alexandros (replying to a post from Merhayrenik)
    "What's up mate? You can't get rid of the that you have inside you?"
    Post # 330 by Hrai. "No, it's thenext door"
    Post #331 by Alexandros " I see. Time to use the holy water"
    Post #332 by Hrai "That'd cause some sizzling of flesh in ankara"
    Post # 333 by may(replying to post#330) "Somebody called me?"
    Post # 334 by Hrai "I'm talking about turkey. You perhaps live in Turkey, may"
    Post#335 by Alexandros "What exactly makes you think I live in Ankara?"
    Post #336 by Hrai "What makes you actually think that I exactly think that you live in ankara? I thought you lived on Massis"

    There the relevant posts...........I cannot see where I said your neighbours were turkey. I was referring to Armenia's neighbours, yes, turkey.
    may in her post showed that she got it right away and you can see my response to her. I was talking about turkey and she lives in Turkey.(this is a point discussed by may & I on a now deleted thread regarding the use or not of capitals when writing turkey/Turkey etc.)
    Your post # 335 shows that even a one-lined post can be mis-interpreted by yourself, how could my post imply that you live in ankara?

    As you are content in your assumptions as to what I write and as above your assumptions on a one-liner are so far off the mark as to make it pointless to continue. I've seen other members post replies in your style which lead to confusion as to the actual post, posting statements which come direct from denialist sites. The reason I mentioned the bible site referring to Turanian Armenians was simply to show that there are probably more spurious sites on the net than genuine ones.
    You have a bee in your bonnet about ASALA.
    The Armenian people cannot be blamed for what ASALA did, they were not the government,yet you try to equate their actions with the actions of regimes in turkey & Germany, ridiculous.
    Please don't try comparisons that don't work.
    As a postscript, I must applaud you on your historical research which shows a real commitment to the truth.
    BTW what would have been the cost of a TV in Germany in 1946 for viewers to see footage from the concentration camps?

    Comment

    • #32
      Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

      Originally posted by hrai View Post
      Alexandros, this is becoming very tiresome. It is obvious that we sit on very opposites sides here and will never agree on this subject.
      However, you make some interesting points, throughout you state the futility of discussion with a turcophobe nearly suggesting it is a crime to be one. The news for you is that it isn't, and if you're surprised to meet one here then you're niaive.
      You accuse me of lying because I disagree with your interpretation of my posts, well there we go.
      I'm writing below the "conversation" from the relevant thread: Please sign this petition.
      Post # 329 by Alexandros (replying to a post from Merhayrenik)
      "What's up mate? You can't get rid of the that you have inside you?"
      Post # 330 by Hrai. "No, it's thenext door"
      Post #331 by Alexandros " I see. Time to use the holy water"
      Post #332 by Hrai "That'd cause some sizzling of flesh in ankara"
      Post # 333 by may(replying to post#330) "Somebody called me?"
      Post # 334 by Hrai "I'm talking about turkey. You perhaps live in Turkey, may"
      Post#335 by Alexandros "What exactly makes you think I live in Ankara?"
      Post #336 by Hrai "What makes you actually think that I exactly think that you live in ankara? I thought you lived on Massis"

      There the relevant posts...........I cannot see where I said your neighbours were turkey. I was referring to Armenia's neighbours, yes, turkey.
      may in her post showed that she got it right away and you can see my response to her. I was talking about turkey and she lives in Turkey.(this is a point discussed by may & I on a now deleted thread regarding the use or not of capitals when writing turkey/Turkey etc.)
      Your post # 335 shows that even a one-lined post can be mis-interpreted by yourself, how could my post imply that you live in ankara?

      As you are content in your assumptions as to what I write and as above your assumptions on a one-liner are so far off the mark as to make it pointless to continue. I've seen other members post replies in your style which lead to confusion as to the actual post, posting statements which come direct from denialist sites. The reason I mentioned the bible site referring to Turanian Armenians was simply to show that there are probably more spurious sites on the net than genuine ones.
      You have a bee in your bonnet about ASALA.
      The Armenian people cannot be blamed for what ASALA did, they were not the government,yet you try to equate their actions with the actions of regimes in turkey & Germany, ridiculous.
      Please don't try comparisons that don't work.
      As a postscript, I must applaud you on your historical research which shows a real commitment to the truth.
      BTW what would have been the cost of a TV in Germany in 1946 for viewers to see footage from the concentration camps?
      Alexandros, this is becoming very tiresome. It is obvious that we sit on very opposites sides here and will never agree on this subject.
      Tiresome, eh?I`m just getting started.

      However, you make some interesting points, throughout you state the futility of discussion with a turcophobe nearly suggesting it is a crime to be one. The news for you is that it isn't, and if you're surprised to meet one here then you're niaive.
      Nope, don`t worry about being a Turkophobe however what my point was that you lose your credibility wen you talk about issues like the ones we do now.If you now think that my point was that being a Turkophobe is a crime then you`re naive.

      You accuse me of lying because I disagree with your interpretation of my posts, well there we go.
      Not because you disagree with me but because you simply lie and then try to cover it up as of nothing had happened.Come on, you even said and this was directed at me and let me quote you again:

      Originally Posted by hrai
      I could care less whether you live.

      http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=338
      Seriously hrai, how can you say this?Do you really wish I were not alive?Can`t you see what you are trying to imply here?It`s clearly you have problems with anger and frustration.

      Post # 329 by Alexandros (replying to a post from Merhayrenik)
      "What's up mate? You can't get rid of the that you have inside you?"
      Post # 330 by Hrai. "No, it's thenext door"
      Post #331 by Alexandros " I see. Time to use the holy water"
      Post #332 by Hrai "That'd cause some sizzling of flesh in ankara"
      Post # 333 by may(replying to post#330) "Somebody called me?"
      Post # 334 by Hrai "I'm talking about turkey. You perhaps live in Turkey, may"
      Post#335 by Alexandros "What exactly makes you think I live in Ankara?"
      Post #336 by Hrai "What makes you actually think that I exactly think that you live in ankara? I thought you lived on Massis"
      Won`t work hrai.You have embarassed yourself and now you are trying to cover it up.Since your memory is extremely short and you left out intentionally a post which belong to you I`m going to quote the missing post you left out:

      Originally Posted by hrai
      In response to your suggestion of using holy water, I posted that would cause sizzling of flesh in ankara........not meaning you live there, but that holy water on devils would cause burning flesh, on the devils next door. ie turks.

      http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=338
      We all know what you meant.No need to try to cover it up.

      There the relevant posts...........I cannot see where I said your neighbours were turkey.
      You left out your post intentionally as I described above.

      I was referring to Armenia's neighbours, yes, turkey.
      We all know that.No need for excuses.

      may in her post showed that she got it right away and you can see my response to her.
      Is may a female?But you are sidestepping what the issue is about and that is that you first lie and then try to cover it up.

      I was talking about turkey and she lives in Turkey.(this is a point discussed by may & I on a now deleted thread regarding the use or not of capitals when writing turkey/Turkey etc.)
      I know hrai that you personally were talking about Turkey.It`s ok.Relax.No need for any excuses.We all know that you mixed the devil with Turkey and the Turks which wasn`t really nice of you to do.I already quoted you above but you try to cover it up.

      Your post # 335 shows that even a one-lined post can be mis-interpreted by yourself, how could my post imply that you live in ankara?
      That`s why I asked you to clarify and you went to clarify that you didn`t mean that and then you said to me and let me quote - again:

      Originally Posted by hrai
      I could care less whether you live.

      http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=338
      Are you trying to cover up this post too?Come on...We all know what you meant.

      As you are content in your assumptions as to what I write and as above your assumptions on a one-liner are so far off the mark as to make it pointless to continue.
      I never did that.It`s you who are sidestepping the issues and try to cover up your posts by intentionally excluding your own posts.Not fair to do in my honest opinion.

      I've seen other members post replies in your style which lead to confusion as to the actual post, posting statements which come direct from denialist sites.
      Oh really?Please tell me more.By the way, the same thing could be said about you too since you are using arguments that easily could be mixed with some Turkish nationalists and their nationalist sites that blames everything on the Christians and other people for Genocide.

      The reason I mentioned the bible site referring to Turanian Armenians was simply to show that there are probably more spurious sites on the net than genuine ones.
      And the reason I gave you the link was that it`s a very credible one:

      About Us


      The International Association of Genocide Scholars is a global, interdisciplinary, non-partisan organization that seeks to further research and teaching about the nature, causes, and consequences of genocide, and advance policy studies on prevention of genocide. The Association, founded in 1994, meets to consider comparative research, important new work, case studies, the links between genocide and other human rights violations, and prevention and punishment of genocide. A central aim of the Association is to draw academics, activists, artists, genocide survivors, journalists, jurists, public policy makers, and other colleagues into the interdisciplinary study of genocide, with the goal of prevention. Membership is open to interested persons worldwide.

      Nothing found for
      http://www.genocidescholars.org/aboutus.html
      Let me add that they have also recognized the Genocide against the Armenians, Assyrians and Greek Pontians.

      You have a bee in your bonnet about ASALA.
      Not at all.It`s you who are obsessive by blaming the whole German people for the holocaust(which not even Israel does) and blaming the majority(did I get it right?) of the Turkish people for the Genocide against the Armenians(which not even Armenia does).Israel blames the NAZI`s and not the German people for the holocaust.Armenia blames the Ottoman regime and not the Turkish people for the Genocide.You however, have come to a different conclusion.

      The Armenian people cannot be blamed for what ASALA did, they were not the government,yet you try to equate their actions with the actions of regimes in turkey & Germany, ridiculous.
      My point was that just because you vote for a political party doesn`t necessarily mean that you approve evrything they do.And it certainly doesn`t make you guilty of a Genocide which you didn`t participate in.It`s ridiculous to blame the whole German people for the holocaust or the majority of the Turkish people for the Genocide.

      Please don't try comparisons that don't work.
      And don`t try to blame the whole/majority of the German or the Turkish people because that won`t work.

      As a postscript, I must applaud you on your historical research which shows a real commitment to the truth.
      BTW what would have been the cost of a TV in Germany in 1946 for viewers to see footage from the concentration camps?
      You ask me?You said you had lived in Germany.The TVs were showing the concentration camps and the corpses.Don`t really understand why you find this funny considering how many people were killed by the NAZI`s.You have strange humor.
      Last edited by Alexandros; 04-01-2009, 06:08 AM.

      Comment

      • #33
        Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

        Originally posted by hrai View Post
        Good.
        Originally Posted by hrai
        I could care less whether you live.

        http://forum.hyeclub.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=338
        Not good.

        Comment

        • #34
          Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

          Originally posted by choopy View Post
          If you were to put a face to the whole thing, whose would it be?

          The 3 pashas? Ataturk? etc...
          Besides the young Turks (CUP) of Ottoman Empire and their appointees in high government positions, provincial administrators, and in strong military posts to carry out the AG one may ask who were the actual Butchers who hacked the defenseless starving and weak Armenian women and children with swords during their death marches in front of their family members in the most barbaric and brutal way??

          A newly made special organization just for this purpose made up of released Turkish convicts and Turkish irregular troops. These death squads responsible for mass slaughters were called Teshkilati Mahsusa headed by Behaeddin Shakir, a medical doctor. They would coordinate their attacks with the Turkish soldiers who were escorting the Armenian masses to the desert camps where eventually the survivors were send into the hot desert to die.

          Many traumatized Armenian young women and children were taken as slaves in Turkish families who were not allowed to grief for their lost loved ones and were forced to change their language and religion.

          To put a face on it???




          I hope this clears up your question.
          Last edited by Eddo211; 04-01-2009, 06:59 AM.
          B0zkurt Hunter

          Comment

          • #35
            Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

            Also Ahmed Djevdet Pasha, one of the cruelest of the whole lot who was the vato in charge of Van and Moush (I think)

            Comment

            • #36
              Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

              Originally posted by Alexandros View Post
              Seriously hrai, how can you say this?Do you really wish I were not alive?
              Again a misquote, I said " I could care less whether you live" that's quite a difference to wishing you not alive...............To wish you not alive is a deliberate thought basically wishing you dead. To say I could care less whether you live simply displays my indifference to your existence.
              Are you trying to cover up this post too?Come on...We all know what you meant.
              If I wanted to cover up posts, surely I would just go back and edit them?????? Which by the way, I don't do.



              You ask me?You said you had lived in Germany.The TVs were showing the concentration camps and the corpses.Don`t really understand why you find this funny considering how many people were killed by the NAZI`s.You have strange humor.
              I was laughing at your depth of research.
              My humour is that, during the period under discussion 1946 during the Nurnberg War Trials, TVs weren't widely available anywhere, least of all in war-ravaged Germany.
              Germans were lucky to have food, water and electricity in 1946. TV really didn't hit the consumer market until the fifties, documentaries concerning the Third Reich started in late sixties on.
              I met Germans who had been nazis, in 1945 they went into hiding, not just the Mengeles of this world, but ordinary people who had been seduced by the nazi -power -trip and I imagine ordinary turks were likewise affected in 1915-1923.

              Comment

              • #37
                Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

                Originally posted by hrai View Post
                Again a misquote, I said " I could care less whether you live" that's quite a difference to wishing you not alive...............To wish you not alive is a deliberate thought basically wishing you dead. To say I could care less whether you live simply displays my indifference to your existence.
                If I wanted to cover up posts, surely I would just go back and edit them?????? Which by the way, I don't do.




                I was laughing at your depth of research.
                My humour is that, during the period under discussion 1946 during the Nurnberg War Trials, TVs weren't widely available anywhere, least of all in war-ravaged Germany.
                Germans were lucky to have food, water and electricity in 1946. TV really didn't hit the consumer market until the fifties, documentaries concerning the Third Reich started in late sixties on.
                I met Germans who had been nazis, in 1945 they went into hiding, not just the Mengeles of this world, but ordinary people who had been seduced by the nazi -power -trip and I imagine ordinary turks were likewise affected in 1915-1923.

                Again a misquote, I said " I could care less whether you live" that's quite a difference to wishing you not alive...............To wish you not alive is a deliberate thought basically wishing you dead. To say I could care less whether you live simply displays my indifference to your existence.
                Seriously, is that a misquote?Please tell me what`s the difference of wishing a person were not alive or "I could care less whether you live."?This is just another way of covering up what you said with extremely bad excuses.You should be ashamed of yourself of what you said.I would never say I thing like that to you.

                If I wanted to cover up posts, surely I would just go back and edit them?????? Which by the way, I don't do.
                Oh reallly?Then why did you left out your post when you quoted several "relevant" posts but not the one I quoted to you which was your post, eh?Trying to play innocent now, aren`t we?

                I was laughing at your depth of research.
                My humour is that, during the period under discussion 1946 during the Nurnberg War Trials, TVs weren't widely available anywhere, least of all in war-ravaged Germany.
                Germans were lucky to have food, water and electricity in 1946. TV really didn't hit the consumer market until the fifties, documentaries concerning the Third Reich started in late sixties on.
                This is another post where you misrepresent my post and ridicul me.What I was trying to say is that if you compared the "information society" back in the 1914-1923 with the "information society" after WW2 there was a huge difference since television had an impact on newspapers,radio and so...But once again, you ridicul the whole thing and completely take my post out of context.

                I met Germans who had been nazis, in 1945 they went into hiding, not just the Mengeles of this world, but ordinary people who had been seduced by the nazi -power -trip and I imagine ordinary turks were likewise affected in 1915-1923.
                Here`s the obessisve remark again: "ordinary people" which you bring up over and over again.Again, you have not proved to me that the whole German people was responsible for the holocaust.Not even Israel thinks that the whole German people are to be blamed for the holocaust.Neither have you proved to me that a majority of the Turkish people was involved in wiping out the Christians from Minor Asia.As i said before, the Armenian Government demands an apology from the Turkish Government and not from the Turkish people.
                Last edited by Alexandros; 04-01-2009, 10:38 AM.

                Comment

                • #38
                  Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

                  You guys seriously need to puff the peace pipe, no offense but really this has gone from a debate to a cluster f**k between two people, both of you have valid point, why not agree to disagree and kiss and make up?

                  Comment

                  • #39
                    Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

                    Why not agree to disagree and kiss and make up?
                    I second that...

                    Also Ahmed Djevdet Pasha, one of the cruelest of the whole lot who was the vato in charge of Van and Moush (I think)
                    Your right, bro, Djevdet Bay was a real xxxxxxx and people can know a little more about him by watching the movie Ararat. He was one of the main characters there. Frankly speaking, I don't think Ararat was a very informative movie but extra light was thrown on Djevdet Bay and Dr. Clarence Usher, an American Missionary who witnessed the annihilation of the Armenian people in Van. He met with Djevdet Bay a few times.
                    THE ROAD TO FREEDOM AND JUSTICE IS A LONG ONE!

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      Re: Who was responsible for orchestrating the 1915 Armenian genocide?

                      Originally Posted by Pedro Xaramillo
                      Why not agree to disagree and kiss and make up?
                      Originally posted by Saco View Post
                      I second that...
                      First of all, I`m a straight male, secondly, I think that would make hrai`s wife jealous.And thirdly, would you Pedro Xaramillo like to kiss Saco?

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