Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

Notice how this "professor" uses secondary sources (Bernard Lewis? You've got to be kidding). What about German, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman commanders, who were all present on the ground, and who all wrote about what happened to the Armenians based on what they saw? What about American travellers in the region during the atrocities? All these sources paint the same picture, which is exactly why he has ommitted them.

A major part of his argument is that westerners are not looking at "both sides" of the issue. He comes from a country where the academia and public are forced to believe one side of the issue on pain of imprisonment or assassination. It is safe to assume that he supports this status quo of bullying intellectuals and thinkers, because instead of protesting this atmosphere of censorship, he chooses as his life's work to endorse these same state lines. One can literally sit here for days and dissect the falsehoods in this letter--- it simply isn't worth the time. This "professor" has not disproven any of the first-hand accounts of Americans, French, British, Arabs, Germans, Austro-Hungarians and Ottomans, all of which are independent sources and all of which agree 100% with Armenian sources. In short, this psuedo-intellectual still has all his work ahead of him

[Alexandros]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

I see what you mean but please don't judge Armenians based on this forum. I hope that the merger will not hurt the armeniangenocide forum.

It already did.There`s a reason why some of the "old" posters doesn`t post here anymore.

[hrai]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

Dear Honorable Senator Feinstein,

I am a Professor of International Relations, and I received my
educational degrees from American schools, including a B.A., two
Masters and a Doctorate (Syracuse University, 1959).

Let me come back to your misleading generalization that you intend to
end genocide by punishing the Turks. I have to underline that genocide
is a product of racism; and racism was born and rose in certain parts
of the Western world. It is an offshoot of a particular level in the
development of the capitalist society; it is the result of an advanced
stage of a certain mode of production. It is like a hand and a glove
with the process of colonial and imperialist exploitation.

One may believe to be "different" from the "other", in terms of
racial, ethnical or religious background. But when this difference is
regarded as innate and unchangeable, and moreover, justifying a sense
of superiority over the other, then, one is confronted with a racist
attitude or a set of beliefs, which also expresses itself in the
practices, institutions and structures which help to justify it.
Racism theorizes about human differences and things badly about
another group. It proposes to establish an order, a permanent group
hierarchy believed to reflect "laws of nature" or even God's
preference. This is what the British, French, German, Spanish, Dutch
and, the Americans have done in various parts of Asia, Africa, and
Latin America.

Racism has two components: difference and power. It originates in the
mind that regards "them" as different from "us", and the difference is
supposed to be permanent and unbridgeable. Government-sanctioned
segregation, colonial subjugation, exclusion, enslavement and genocide
may follow that racist orientation. White supremacy, Christian
selectivity, and anti-semitism are the result. The Blacks, the
Muslims, and the xxxs were tolerated as long as they stayed in "their
place". In some Western societies, racism was fully worked out,
elaborately implemented, and carried to its extremes.

There is no racism in the Turkish psyche. It has never been a part of
the Turks' social, political, and psychological set-up. They are the
ones who recognized the Orthodox, Armenian, xxxish, Catholic, and
Protestants as separate peoples with the right to worship in their own
way, built their own religious structures, elect their own
representatives and be led by them, go anywhere within the large
confides of the State, indulge in any kind of profession or work, and
eventually join the State administration. This is known, dear Senator,
as the famous "millet" system about which you give no hint of having
accumulated sufficient knowledge. The Turks achieved all that when
Europe was fighting religious wars, when Cromwell was pursuing his
Catholics, the French butchering their Huguenots, and others subduing
the Calvinists.

Best wishes,

Türkkaya Ataöv
Professor of International Relations

This is such a poor address by a Professor, I wonder if it is a spoof or has someone plagiarised his name?

[may]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

You know bells, I was going to put the effort in and provide info to our dear may to prove what a lying low down scum belly this guy really is and what kinds of stunts he has pulled when he was in USA but I really don’t have the time or more so the desire to prove him wrong................its not like it is going to matter to you Turks anyhow.

All I got to say may is..............let your conscious be your guide.

Please do so when you have time Eddo.

Regarding my consciuosness: I have been to one of his talks. He provides different figures of headcount, he pursues the discussion of who hit first (something you cannot even figure out in a fight between two kids, where two nations are trying to figure out among themselves), he makes some points about "forgeries" just like he is accused of some etc.

I do not question his sources, because I do not have enough knowledge or research to disprove some research from the place I sit. Also they look pretty convincing when it is presented without opposition (just like Armenian ones). If he fooled me, he won't be the only person that fooled me in my life.

I question his reasoning or justification of events leading to deportations/relocations/killings. I am not convinced with some of his explanations. Even assuming that they are perfectly valid and true, they are not justifications of what happened in my opinion.

Etc, etc... You asked consciousness, and I have one. As you see, I take the time to adress what you asked for. As a side note, I don't have much time either, and Alexandros has my word to continue a discussion when I have time. I still did not read some of his sources, but use the time to respond you. Alexandros, my apologies . All that being said, it is fair for me to ask a response from you, Eddo.

My response was something personal about you and your comment, not much to do about Ataov's claims. However, in a sense, it was a general opposition to Armenians' attitude towards any Turkish source as long as they are not supporting AG side. For sure, things did not happen as our Turkish education system taught us, but it did not happen as you learned from Armenian-only sources as well. In terms of forgeries, misleads, falsifications, political pressure, hiring money/fame-driven scholars etc., assume Turkish are really expert as Armenians say. But still, Armenians are not that bad either.

So, I will be waiting for your response about Ataov's adress. But please do not use pictures that you find from web, showing two people somewhere in world holding a banner saying "Armenians and dogs are not allowed" to prove how racist the Turks really are. Singular examples will not lead anywhere. You personally declared a dismay about Ataov's professorship status, so I have high expectations about your response's content.

[Emrah]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

This is such a poor address by a Professor, I wonder if it is a spoof or has someone plagiarised his name?

This letter is original. You can send an email to the senator whose email is given below and ask about it. I removed the email address of Prof. Ataov intentionally, since I know perfectly well that some people on this forum would insult him.

----------------------------------------------------------
From: "Turkkaya Ataov" <[email protected]
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:03 PM
To: <[email protected]
Subject: Letter to Senator Feinstein
----------------------------------------------------------


Many of the people on this forum are missing the point in the letter above, which is the fact that Ottoman Empire was betrayed by its own citizens, who were provoked by the western missionaries, formed armed forces against it, invaded the Ottoman city of Van, fought against the Ottomans side by side with the Russians, and killed thousands of Muslim (Turks and Kurds alike). All of these happened before the so called “genocide”. He is saying that you continue to ignore all of these events and simply blaming Ottomans to commit genocide, by putting them in the same category as Hitler!

Turkish government has stated it is ready to open its state archives and Ottoman archives to investigate this matter, but for some reason Armenian government declines such an investigation in its archives and wants to continue the status quo. The reason is very simple: Turks will not lose anything in such a case (they have already been blamed by the success of Armenian propaganda on the international arena), but Armenians will lose a lot. The whole world will see that Prof. Ataov is right. If you are really confident that Prof. Ataov’s claims are Turkish propaganda, what are you afraid of? Open your archives and let the truth be known. Instead of concentrating on the grammar and writing of the above letter, you choose to denounce the professor.

Oh, I forgot! You have no intention of creating an international debate on this. You think that you have already been winning. But, I just don’t understand what you think you have been winning. Have you ever gone to Armenia to see the struggling Armenian people, due to closed borders with Turkey? It is easy for most people writing on this forum to be blunt! You are living in a luxuries life, thousands of miles away, mostly in CA! I suggest you to go to Armenia and Turkey, visit the region, and see the struggling Turkish and Armenian people due to economic conditions. Seeing yourself as the victims of a so called genocide without the pre-conditions of these events unite you in USA, but you don’t think what it means for the Armenian people living in Armenia. You are being selfish.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

Please do so when you have time Eddo.

He will never have the time.

Regarding my consciuosness: I have been to one of his talks. He provides different figures of headcount, he pursues the discussion of who hit first (something you cannot even figure out in a fight between two kids, where two nations are trying to figure out among themselves), he makes some points about "forgeries" just like he is accused of some etc.

I do not question his sources, because I do not have enough knowledge or research to disprove some research from the place I sit. Also they look pretty convincing when it is presented without opposition (just like Armenian ones). If he fooled me, he won't be the only person that fooled me in my life.

I question his reasoning or justification of events leading to deportations/relocations/killings. I am not convinced with some of his explanations. Even assuming that they are perfectly valid and true, they are not justifications of what happened in my opinion.

Etc, etc... You asked consciousness, and I have one. As you see, I take the time to adress what you asked for. As a side note, I don't have much time either, and Alexandros has my word to continue a discussion when I have time. I still did not read some of his sources, but use the time to respond you. Alexandros, my apologies . All that being said, it is fair for me to ask a response from you, Eddo.

My response was something personal about you and your comment, not much to do about Ataov's claims. However, in a sense, it was a general opposition to Armenians' attitude towards any Turkish source as long as they are not supporting AG side. For sure, things did not happen as our Turkish education system taught us, but it did not happen as you learned from Armenian-only sources as well. In terms of forgeries, misleads, falsifications, political pressure, hiring money/fame-driven scholars etc., assume Turkish are really expert as Armenians say. But still, Armenians are not that bad either.

So, I will be waiting for your response about Ataov's adress. But please do not use pictures that you find from web, showing two people somewhere in world holding a banner saying "Armenians and dogs are not allowed" to prove how racist the Turks really are. Singular examples will not lead anywhere. You personally declared a dismay about Ataov's professorship status, so I have high expectations about your response's content.

Every sentence in Ataov's letter indicates that he is a charlatan. If I were to use a selection of coloured markers, and underline in one colour every lie it contains, underline in another colour every distortion, underline in a third colour every misrepresentation, in a fourth colour every example of duplicity and trickery, the entire letter would end up being underlined.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

Many of the people on this forum are missing the point in the letter above, which is the fact that Ottoman Empire was betrayed by its own citizens, who were provoked by the western missionaries, formed armed forces against it, invaded the Ottoman city of Van, fought against the Ottomans side by side with the Russians, and killed thousands of Muslim (Turks and Kurds alike). All of these happened before the so called “genocide”. He is saying that you continue to ignore all of these events and simply blaming Ottomans to commit genocide, by putting them in the same category as Hitler!

For the sake of argument, lets just assume what you say about Armenians is true. If we apply your logic to Ataturk, who also waged war against the Ottomans, then him and all his followers are guilty of treason against the Ottoman Empire. Of course, you choose to judge Armenians and Turks with different criteria, because you have been raised to believe that Ataturk is an infallible diety while being taught that Armenians are back-stabbing liars.

Your bias in these matters is evident by your double standard.

Turkish government has stated it is ready to open its state archives and Ottoman archives to investigate this matter, but for some reason Armenian government declines such an investigation in its archives and wants to continue the status quo. The reason is very simple: Turks will not lose anything in such a case (they have already been blamed by the success of Armenian propaganda on the international arena), but Armenians will lose a lot. The whole world will see that Prof. Ataov is right. If you are really confident that Prof. Ataov’s claims are Turkish propaganda, what are you afraid of? Open your archives and let the truth be known. Instead of concentrating on the grammar and writing of the above letter, you choose to denounce the professor.

Our archives have been open to everyone from day one. You have no evidence to the contrary.

The Turks first destroyed a large part of their own archives (even Ataturk admitted this), then kept the remaining portions secret, and now they keep saying they will give access to these remaining archives. Stop saying you will open them, and just open them. You don't need to conduct an investigation in order to open up archives. Just open them and make them available to independent historians and writers. Of course, Turkey doesn't want to do this, because it has been waging a crusade against intellectuals and free thinking. There are more people on trial for speech crimes in Turkey than anywhere else in the world, even more than China. The Turkish state's stance on freedom of speech is very clear to the rest of the world.

Either way, the world already has access to Ottoman first-hand accounts. This includes interviews with Talaat and Enver Pasha, and loads of first-hand accounts of the genocide, written by Ottoman field commanders who actually took part in the massacres. Go read "Four Years Beneath the Crescent" by Rafael De Nogales, former commander of Ottoman forces who attacked Van. There are many other sources, but that should keep you busy for now.

Oh, I forgot! You have no intention of creating an international debate on this. You think that you have already been winning. But, I just don’t understand what you think you have been winning. Have you ever gone to Armenia to see the struggling Armenian people, due to closed borders with Turkey? It is easy for most people writing on this forum to be blunt! You are living in a luxuries life, thousands of miles away, mostly in CA! I suggest you to go to Armenia and Turkey, visit the region, and see the struggling Turkish and Armenian people due to economic conditions. Seeing yourself as the victims of a so called genocide without the pre-conditions of these events unite you in USA, but you don’t think what it means for the Armenian people living in Armenia. You are being selfish.

Many of us have visited Armenia many times. Stop pretending that you know something about Armenians--- you don't.

You're blaming Armenians for the border, when it was Turkey who closed the border. Armenia's government has said 100 times that genocide recognition is not a precondition to having normal relations with Turkey. Its Turkey that wants to make the genocide a precondition to opening borders with Armenia. The least you can do is research a topic before speaking about it.

Oh, I forgot! You have no intention of creating an international debate on this.

It is Turks who have no intention of creating a free debate on this issue. Here is a simple excercise: Name me someone who was arrested by Armenians for saying the genocide didn't happen. Good luck finding a single name. Now, name me someone who was arrested by Turks who used the word genocide. You can come up with names from the top of your head.

[Eddo211]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

..........My response was something personal about you and your comment, not much to do about Ataov's claims........

What do you expect may, you want me to speak well of someone who is idolized in your Anti-Armenian websites and accuses the whole Armenian race of lying? If you think I won’t attack his credentials anyway I can especially when his lies are posted on an Armenian website because some Turk feels like it then you are crazy.

Nothing personnel may, it is just that the way your government has made the ground rules and the conduct of your countrymen that influences my reactions.


To Emrah:
When the armed government of 25 million people turns on and exterminates an unarmed minority of three million old men, women, and children, it is hardly an "inter-communal struggle", "an ethnic feud", or "civil war"; it is nothing more or less than genocide.

You Turks have adopted the line of "leave Armenian history to the historians" because nobody believes you anymore. The issue of the Armenian Genocide is not a question of historical truth……..that has been settled; it is rather an issue of morality and the acceptance of the truth.

If you are so concerned with living standards in Armenia Emrah why don’t you open your boarders without preconditions. Armenian boarders have never been closed so what is your problem Turk.

[Valerian2]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

It already did.There`s a reason why some of the "old" posters doesn`t post here anymore.

That is a shame and I'm sorry to hear that. I just hope that it won't get much worse, this forum has steadily degraded during the last 2 years or so.

[Alexandros]

Re: Letter from Prof. Ataov to US Senator about Armenian-Turkish issue

As a side note, I don't have much time either, and Alexandros has my word to continue a discussion when I have time. I still did not read some of his sources, but use the time to respond you. Alexandros, my apologies .

It`s ok may.Take your time.