New program against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

[egeli]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

No... It is just a feeling or logic that:

"My enemy's enemy is my friend."

By the way, my mother's family emigrated to Turkey from Crete Island (Greece) a few decades ago. And there was no immigration from Anatolia to Crete in Ottoman history, so at least I am half-Greek. They didn't even know how to speak Turkish when they came to Turkey. But my mothers family had to emigrate because they were Muslims, otherwise they most probably would be killed. Just wanted to let you know.

Eti, your mothers family indeed would have if they didn't emigrate to Turkey. I hope you realize that Christians in Anatolia also were in the same situation, Greeks in Western Anatolia fortunately made it out in time under the population exchanges between Greece and Turkey.

However, Armenians in Eastern Anatolia weren't so lucky. There was no Armenian state for them to emigrate to, and thus no population exchange. They along with their culture were exterminated by Eastern Anatolian Muslims who today identify themselves as Kurds. These Kurds were exploited by the wretched Turanists controlling the Ottoman State at the time.

Don't you feel any shame that a land inhabited for thousands of years by Armenians, has now absolutely no trace of their culture?

[Yedtarts]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

Mukuck, you have no idea what a Turk is. Ottomans for most of their history never, ever referred to themselves as Turks. The Ottoman Empire was an Islamic Empire that was centered in the Balkans (not Anatolia). Most people in this forum describe the Devshirme system of taking young Christian boys from their families to become either Jannisaries or Imperial Servants (Grand Viziers, etc) as slavery.

It was not. The moment Mimar Sinan (an Architect of Armenian Birth), Pargalı İbrahim Pasha (a Grand Vizier from guess where, Parga Greece), and Damat İbrahim Pasha (another Grand Vizier of Serbian birth) converted to Islam, THEY BECAME TURKS. These "slaves" became the most powerful class in the Ottoman Empire.

Ottoman Muslims were first called Turks by foreign powers. It wasn't until nationalism surfaced in the 1800s that Muslims in the Ottoman Empire created their own national heritage to compete with the indigenous ethnic nationalism of Armenians, Greeks, Serbs, etc. Of course, there is some central Asian ethnic hertiage of Turks today. But, Turks are ethnically far more related to the indigenous ethnic groups of Anatolia, the Balkan, Arabia, North Africa, and the Caucasus, than they are to central Asians.

Turanism is a lie. Turkish heritage is Islamic heritage.

All you turks should agree and stick to one story about who were you or where you guys came from, because as I see each turk has invented and wrote his own history and it’s becoming kind of ridiculous.

[Mukuch]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

Mukuck, you have no idea what a Turk is. Ottomans for most of their history never, ever referred to themselves as Turks. The Ottoman Empire was an Islamic Empire that was centered in the Balkans (not Anatolia). Most people in this forum describe the Devshirme system of taking young Christian boys from their families to become either Jannisaries or Imperial Servants (Grand Viziers, etc) as slavery.

It was not. The moment Mimar Sinan (an Architect of Armenian Birth), Pargalı İbrahim Pasha (a Grand Vizier from guess where, Parga Greece), and Damat İbrahim Pasha (another Grand Vizier of Serbian birth) converted to Islam, THEY BECAME TURKS. These "slaves" became the most powerful class in the Ottoman Empire.

Ottoman Muslims were first called Turks by foreign powers. It wasn't until nationalism surfaced in the 1800s that Muslims in the Ottoman Empire created their own national heritage to compete with the indigenous ethnic nationalism of Armenians, Greeks, Serbs, etc. Of course, there is some central Asian ethnic hertiage of Turks today. But, Turks are ethnically far more related to the indigenous ethnic groups of Anatolia, the Balkan, Arabia, North Africa, and the Caucasus, than they are to central Asians.

Turanism is a lie. Turkish heritage is Islamic heritage.

Thank you for very interesting lecture, but got to disappoint you: didn’t say anything new to me.
My impression was that Greeks under Ottoman rule mostly have managed to maintain their religion and identity. Jannisaries or Imperial Servants were rather exclusion than the rule. (At least for Armenians). So my question was: were there Greeks who were converted to Islam and were still considered as Greeks.

Turanism is not a lie as it is the most dangerous ideology. And it is the moving force of turkish nationalism. Turks may have been in contact with our cultures but they preserved throw centuries their most bloody nature despite all that influence.

[egeli]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

Thank you for very interesting lecture, but got to disappoint you: didn’t say anything new to me.
My impression was that Greeks under Ottoman rule mostly have managed to maintain their religion and identity. Jannisaries or Imperial Servants were rather exclusion than the rule. (At least for Armenians). So my question was: were there Greeks who were converted to Islam and were still considered as Greeks.

Turanism is not a lie as it is the most dangerous ideology. And it is the moving force of turkish nationalism. Turks may have been in contact with our cultures but they preserved throw centuries their most bloody nature despite all that influence.

Greek Muslim = Turk. Conversions were just not limited to the palace, it happened in the tens of millions.

Turanism is just as dangerous as any ethnic nationalist ideology, including the Dashnaks.

[egeli]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

All you turks should agree and stick to one story about who were you or where you guys came from, because as I see each turk has invented and wrote his own history and it’s becoming kind of ridiculous.

Yes, its true. I would like to debate that very subject with you, but you seem to be too much of an extremist. By the way, I am first and foremost an individual, not just a Turk.

[Yedtarts]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

Yes, its true. I would like to debate that very subject with you, but you seem to be too much of an extremist. By the way, I am first and foremost an individual, not just a Turk.

You’re saying it as if being an extremist is a bad thing, actually I am an extreme extremist, I extremely love my nation and my people, and I am extremely proud of our heritage and our history, I am also extremely pro Jesus and a fanatic Christian. I think if someone betrays or harms any of these values should be hang from his balls.

See the difference between you and me is: I can proudly say, I first and foremost am an Armenian and that's not a bad thing at all!!!!

[Crimson Glow]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

And I know I have faschistic opinions but I had told years ago on this site that (if they like) I personally want Diaspora Armenians to come Turkey to live here after giving them some properties and making them Turkish citizens as well. Of course our faschists woudn’t want this.

We wouldn't want that, either. Why the hell would we move back to OUR ancient lands only to become TURKISH citizens?? Do you have a legitimate reason why the indigenous people of a lands would convert to citizens of distant invaders of those lands? Do you have a legitimate reason why, after occupying those lands for thousands of years, we'd move back only to be under the rule of a nation that moved in a few hundred years ago? Do you have a legitimate reason why we would want to voluntarily become citizens of a nation that slaughtered 1.5 million of our people, took our properties and wealth, and stole our ancient homelands to begin with? A nation that has denied that crime for nearly 100 years? A nation that stole our culture, food and music, and today, not only tries to pass it off as their own, but has the nerve to say WE (the ancient Anatolians) stole our Anatolian culture from THEM (Mongols from Central Asia)?? How does that sound enticing or reasonable to you by any stretch of the imagination? That's not a peaceful solution. That's a slap in the face. An insult to all those that perished at the hands of your ancestors.

This type of mentality is precisely why we'll never reach a "peaceful solution". It has nothing to do with the diaspora not wanting a resolution. The problem is your supposed "peaceful solution" revolves around "let's just forget about the past, and be friends. Don't mention what we did to your people again, hmm? Maybe we'll even let you come live on 'our' land. Deal?" You Turks just don't get it, do you? You don't get that those aren't your lands. The solution must not only be peaceful, but it must be just as well, and the only just solution is to formally admit and apologize for your ancestors crimes, and return those lands to its rightful owner; Armenia. THAT is the only "just, peaceful solution" to our relations. We're all for that solution. I don't think there's a single person in the diaspora that wouldn't go for that resolution.

NOW PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION HONESTLY:

DOES TURKEY WANT THIS JUST, PEACEFUL SOLUTION BETWEEN TURKEY AND ARMENIA?

[Jos]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

We wouldn't want that, either. Why the hell would we move back to OUR ancient lands only to become TURKISH citizens?? Do you have a legitimate reason why the indigenous people of a lands would convert to citizens of distant invaders of those lands? Do you have a legitimate reason why, after occupying those lands for thousands of years, we'd move back only to be under the rule of a nation that moved in a few hundred years ago? Do you have a legitimate reason why we would want to voluntarily become citizens of a nation that slaughtered 1.5 million of our people, took our properties and wealth, and stole our ancient homelands to begin with? A nation that has denied that crime for nearly 100 years? A nation that stole our culture, food and music, and today, not only tries to pass it off as their own, but has the nerve to say WE (the ancient Anatolians) stole our Anatolian culture from THEM (Mongols from Central Asia)?? How does that sound enticing or reasonable to you by any stretch of the imagination? That's not a peaceful solution. That's a slap in the face. An insult to all those that perished at the hands of your ancestors.

This type of mentality is precisely why we'll never reach a "peaceful solution". It has nothing to do with the diaspora not wanting a resolution. The problem is your supposed "peaceful solution" revolves around "let's just forget about the past, and be friends. Don't mention what we did to your people again, hmm? Maybe we'll even let you come live on 'our' land. Deal?" You Turks just don't get it, do you? You don't get that those aren't your lands. The solution must not only be peaceful, but it must be just as well, and the only just solution is to formally admit and apologize for your ancestors crimes, and return those lands to its rightful owner; Armenia. THAT is the only "just, peaceful solution" to our relations. We're all for that solution. I don't think there's a single person in the diaspora that wouldn't go for that resolution.

NOW PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION HONESTLY:

DOES TURKEY WANT THIS JUST, PEACEFUL SOLUTION BETWEEN TURKEY AND ARMENIA?

NO is the only realistic answer to your question.

Your asking for some form of genuflection. That is, for every Turk to bend their knee as a sign of reverence in a subservient manner and ask for forgiveness and forsake materialism to reach a point of enlightened spirituality.

Unless Turks turn into a nation of Tibetan monks in my lifetime your concept of a peaceful solution just isn't going to happen!

[firat]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

We wouldn't want that, either. Why the hell would we move back to OUR ancient lands only to become TURKISH citizens?? Do you have a legitimate reason why the indigenous people of a lands would convert to citizens of distant invaders of those lands? Do you have a legitimate reason why, after occupying those lands for thousands of years, we'd move back only to be under the rule of a nation that moved in a few hundred years ago? Do you have a legitimate reason why we would want to voluntarily become citizens of a nation that slaughtered 1.5 million of our people, took our properties and wealth, and stole our ancient homelands to begin with? A nation that has denied that crime for nearly 100 years? A nation that stole our culture, food and music, and today, not only tries to pass it off as their own, but has the nerve to say WE (the ancient Anatolians) stole our Anatolian culture from THEM (Mongols from Central Asia)?? How does that sound enticing or reasonable to you by any stretch of the imagination? That's not a peaceful solution. That's a slap in the face. An insult to all those that perished at the hands of your ancestors.

This type of mentality is precisely why we'll never reach a "peaceful solution". It has nothing to do with the diaspora not wanting a resolution. The problem is your supposed "peaceful solution" revolves around "let's just forget about the past, and be friends. Don't mention what we did to your people again, hmm? Maybe we'll even let you come live on 'our' land. Deal?" You Turks just don't get it, do you? You don't get that those aren't your lands. The solution must not only be peaceful, but it must be just as well, and the only just solution is to formally admit and apologize for your ancestors crimes, and return those lands to its rightful owner; Armenia. THAT is the only "just, peaceful solution" to our relations. We're all for that solution. I don't think there's a single person in the diaspora that wouldn't go for that resolution.

NOW PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION HONESTLY:

DOES TURKEY WANT THIS JUST, PEACEFUL SOLUTION BETWEEN TURKEY AND ARMENIA?

Since the last 24th April, I have tried to follow every bit of article upon Armenian -Turkish relations published in Turkey. Some of you might be well aware that (due to some of yours good command of Turkish language) the issue is discussed somewhat differently than it was used to before. Some political comentators consider this as a positive step towards free speech in Turkey which I agree upon.

I started to think that there exists a powerful Armenian lobby in Turkey. Eventhough mainstream media and vast majority of people do not have positive opinions about Armenia and Armenians just like opposite case in Armenia and Armenian diaspora, the road map and protocol which was lately signed have taken some good reactions as well. As far as I can understand the Armenian population in Turkey is more optimistic for the future.

Let me be clear about the way you think. There are exact the same copies of your opinions in Turkey too simply the Turkish versions. Besides, because of the population difference, there are far more people who think this way. Honestly, if both parties try to preserve their stances just like you and you Turkish version, only my Turkish fellow will keep enjoying the status quo but not you.

My stance on the issue is that whether or not the events can be be named as genocide, these great atrocities must be well known by Turkish citizens especially by the Turkish youth keeping in mind that these dark incidents took place not only in the history of Turkish nation but also in the history of some other nations.

It is an undeniable fact that hundreds of thousands of Armenian citizen of the Ottoman Empire lost their lives and much more lost their properties within the boundaries of the empire. This, I believe, must somehow be compensated and rights of these Armenians must be returned to the heirs of the victims of these atrocities so to speak.

Suggestion of some Turkish citizens to the Armenians such as 'those who can prove their link to the Ottoman Empire must be granted with Turkish citizenship' is far more than a gesture for me but some sort of a will or a call to make a better country. What I am telling is not a solution propasal, maybe more like a dream. We should not forget that none of the nations actually possesses the land. As a Turkish citizen, I think that the best and unfortunately the most unlikely solution is to make the land 'ours' again.

Regarding to your question, No Turk in this country can or will accept the peaceful solution you propose simply because it is not peaceful. No Turk is less right than you to claim the same land as his or her land now. This makes you even. The land belongs to both of you. If you are unable to accept this simple fact, you will never actually be able to share the land with your Turkish neighbor.

[Mukuch]

Re: New pogrom against the Armenians and Greeks in Istanbul?

Turanism is just as dangerous as any ethnic nationalist ideology, including the Dashnaks.

LOL, interesting. And how dashnak ideology is dangerous? And for who?
What the xxxx you know about dashnak ideology?