Peace at home, peace on earth:Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

[karoaper]

My family is Bolsahai (Armenians from Istanbul), and they seem to hold Ataturk in high esteem, as he greatly modernized the Turkish state according to European standards.

Just because someone is speaking "blasphemy", does not mean you have to stoop down to their level. And in my opinion, loveataturk poses no threat to us, even though he does not understand the degree of the bloodshed and the manner in which it was spilled. Explain this to him, rather than telling ...

I've gotta address some issues that concern me about your post, even though I certainly agree with some of the points, namely that our focus has to be directly inward towards strengthening our nation. However, I don't see why we can't fight to educate the world about the Genocide and drag Turks' noses through their muck while we're strengthening Armenia and the global Armenian community.

OK, my main concern is this Ataturk. My initial reaction when the entire peoples worship a single person like a god and put all their blessings on his shoulders, is that either this man is a dictator and a tirant who has created an entire institution of lies glorifying him or the system of government has done so in oder to direct the people's attention away from the reality of corruption and greed. You saw this in Soviet Union, where people were brainwashed into believing that Lenin was a demigod, the immortal father who was the cause of all good. Thus Soviets would never believe and willingly conceed that Russians had committed a Genocide of Ukrainians or that the whole system was incredibly corrupt and evil. The same you have in Turkey, where the people are either sheep who know absolutely nothing of truth and don't really care, or people who know very well but are downright evil scum who say under their breath that Armenians deserved it (that includes the massacres, rape and pillage and of couse the horrific deportations).

So, Ataturk modernized Turkey. With what incredible riches did he achieve this feat at the time when the country was dirt poor and just coming out war? The answer is the riches and wealth that the criminal regime stole and robbed from a million and half of OUR people. So to admire this scum makes absolutely no sense to me.

Then, you say let's listen to his side of the story. I say we have and we have a lot. It's absolutely the same story we've heard thousands of times before. To "want to know the truth" and not know it yet after so much has been written and so much discussed is simply impossible. It's obvious that rather than hearing what we're saying, the turks that come here want to make us hear what they're saying, which is the same droll that Armenians backstabbed Turks and then Turks had to "pacify" us. Maybe then some will conceed that "Yes, many Armenians died and that's tragic". But, since Armenians stood up to the defense of their people against the barbaric way they were treated since before Hamidian Massacres, Turks are excused by drawing the civil war/self-defense card. It's an extremely simple argument, which they have been using since forever. So, I honestly don't know what loveata could tell us that is new and enlightening.

Finally I totally agree that noone expects Turks to give back the land willingly. Germans wouldn't have made reparations, if the Allies hadn't forced them. The same must hold with the Turks. They must either be forced militarily (yes through war where we destroy their armies and take back our land) or politically (and luckily we're doing better on this front). I also agree that right now, at least militarily we're nowhere near ready to take back our lands. But, my hope is that the desire to do so will not die ever, so that one day when the tide has turned we can be victorious. As far as politically, I also agree that things don't look too favorably for us, due to as you said the need of world nations to keep the peaceand stability, except in cases when chaos plays into their hands, and Turkey's geopolitical allignment in the world of politics that is very favorable to US and Israel.

I didn't mean to be harsh or arrogant. You're an Armenian and thus a brother. But some of your points were troublesome to me.

[skhara]

However, I don't see why we can't fight to educate the world about the Genocide and drag Turks' noses through their muck while we're strengthening Armenia and the global Armenian community.

The only benefit I see, is attacking Turkey on the stage of public opinion. That's perfectly fine with me. EU nations are using the Armenian Genocide as a weapon against Turks, that's perfectly fine with me.

know very well but are downright evil scum who say under their breath that Armenians deserved it

They may say it, but as Clint Eastwood said: "Deserve's got nothing to do with it" in a film called "Unforgiven". They do whats in their nature.

I see it as a clash of civilisations that has raged and continues to rage in Caucasia, Anatolia, and Balkans. I see Armenians as elves, and turds as orcs.

[skhara]

and deport Armenian people so that they can no longer pose a threat to the already weakened Ottoman State.

I don't see why turks whine about Russian treatment of Chechens. So far its been very gentle. The Kremlin government should be perfectly justified in rounding up and deporting the entire Chechen population from Chechnya into the middle of the Caspian Sea and end them as a threat to Russia's Caucasus security.

Then they can build a mosque in Moscow and say: "We love Chechens."

[TomServo]

Chechens!

Mosque in Moscow. Catchy.

[skhara]

Here is the proper perspective of viewing things:

This is us:




And that's them:

[karoaper]

Here is the proper perspective of viewing things:

This is us:




And that's them:

hehehehehe

arghhhhhhh, grrrrrrrr, hungry, must eat elven flesh

[TomServo]

You can be the dark elf.

[jgk3]

To Karo: Yes, I see why some of my points were troublesome, but I also think that the only way order can be restored between the two peoples is through war or through diplomacy, and this time, one that Armenians win by a landslide.

I see what you mean when you say Ataturk sort of attempted for a clean slate effect to make everyone forget what really happened. I realize now that the modernization of the urban centers was indeed at the cost of the rural lands where the Armenians and other Anatolian minorities lived. For a Turk, Ataturk was a hero.

My mother's family lived in Istanbul and did not witness the events that took place in Anatolia during the reign of Ataturk. During the genocide itself, they were sheltered by their Turkish neighbors, and this is why, to this day, they hold a sense of gratitude towards them (friendly Turks). This is why I'm not so quick to perceive a common Turk as a savage murder who needs to be punished.

But when we speak to Turks on this forum, we must not scare them away with our rashness. We must explain to them our side of the story, and let them explain their side, whether or not it enlightens us. The purpose is to achieve a middleground, so discussion can be made. These discussions do not pacify our past at all, but at least it doesn't make us look like ignorant rats to the Turks. By ending their prejudice of Armenians being the bad guys, and by winning their respect instead, I think we'll gain more of an advantage when we try to make our actual ammends in the future. I acknowledge this is an unspeakable deed to be carried out by an Armenian, who is aware of the horrors of the genocide and the barbaric Turks who carried them out, however, we have no power as things stand. We do not need to feel any less angry at what the Turks did to us, but we must keep a civilized face, otherwise noone will listen to us except other angry Armenians, and alone, we have no power to make ammends.

[skhara]

We do not need to feel any less angry

Actually, although it is very difficult not to, anger is an emotion that breaks down discipline. Its best if anger is done away with.

at what the Turks did to us,

These turks are dead by now are they not?

but we must keep a civilized face,

When the situation calls for it. I agree.

otherwise noone will listen to us except other angry Armenians, and alone, we have no power to make ammends.

I do remember hearing something out of the Artsakh war where some of the leadership said that it was often those who displayed a eager hatered who were often among the first to get themselves killed. Such emotions break down discipline. And when one becomes dead, one can no longer be of any assistance to the cause and to the people. So yeah, keeping a cool head is important on all fronts.

[jgk3]

It is difficult to remember our mission if our anger is done away with. If we just let our anger go, our entire legacy, our background, our identity before the events of 1915 will suffer a devastating blow. We will be no different the various Anatolian communities who have no race, or at least don't even bother to identify themselves as what they originally were before, because the Turks took this away from them. However, the modern mind is trained to say, "I couldn't care less if I have no race, I'm just going to live my life for myself". If you feel this way, you can leave our cause, but we want to keep to our cause, our legacy And no, it's not because we're living in the past, but because we're concerned about our future.

There must be a balance between our anger and our tact, otherwise, we will achieve nothing.

Oh and by the way, the actual Turks who led the genocide may be dead, but their legacy lives on, and haunts us to this day. This is a deep wound to us. We cannot just forgive and forget, even if it happened 90 years ago. No, we don't need to repeat the mistakes of the past, we do not need to have mass killings of Turks, but we must reclaim what is ours should this wound ever close.