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Peace at home, peace on earth:Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

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  • #11
    Originally posted by Stark Evade
    Tres Bien: I think you're being a bit too agressive. His post was mild-mannered and respectful. There's no need to be so harsh so hastily.
    Mild-mannered? The dude's name is "loveataturk" and you have trouble understanding the bastard's agenda on this forum? Open your eyes people
    this post = teh win.

    Comment

    • #12
      Originally posted by loveataturk
      Back to the topic: The more I think about the situation around 1915, the more I realize what could have happened: Armenians, thinking they finally had a chance to grasp the land of Turks (ottomans) while the Ottomans were "in their opinion" weakened by the war with Russians, attacked Turkish communities, murdering many Turks. Obviously the first murderers were Armenians, but not the general Armenian populus, just some sick-disgusting Armenian militia-men.

      The Ottomans, after successfully subduing the stupid Russians, turned back to face the rebelling and treacherous militia...of the Armenians. While delivering the "justified" response to the Armenian militia-losers, the situation got out of hand, and TOTALLY UNNECESSARY AND HATE-DRIVEN ATTACKS ON INNOCENT ARMENIANS was committed by the Ottoman troops...

      Disgustingly opportunistic Armenian militia-losers versus the frenzied Ottoman troops: the two true crime perpetrators of history that need to be remembered...

      Who paid the price? The innocent folk of decent Turkish-Armenians and Turks...

      This is my opinion.
      My opinion is you should take your opinion and stick it in the same place where your head is right now.
      Last edited by Sip; 08-26-2004, 03:47 AM.
      this post = teh win.

      Comment

      • #13
        Yeah lovataturk - an opinion and an incorrect one. Please read the (true) history before forming and fostering your meaningless opinions upon us. Your glaring ommissions and mischaracterizations are to numorous to mention and for me to know even where to begin (but its not 1914/15 but a ways before)...let me just offer you a similar opinon (as a for instance) - Its my opinion that the American Indians were greedy land loving types who just felt no need to share with the Europeans who were landing on their shores. They (the Indians) clearly decided to start killing them (Europeans) (I mean lets just ignore a few inconsequential things OK?) - and even though they were the ones ultimatly killed off its clearly entirely their fault and one cannot blame the Europeans even if they did kill women and children - clear out and wipe out whole villages, nations etc and intentionally inflict the Indians with disease and hardship et cet c- no they were only acting as anyone would - kill them all - thats what I say - they got what they deserved - and I am so very proud about what was done...and acknoledge any wrongdoing - no way - those Indians who make noise about loosing thier lands and the fact that millions were delibertly and otherwise slaughtered - well tough xxxx - they got what they deserved...Don't you agree?

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        • #14
          Nice analogy, sir.

          Comment

          • #15
            Originally posted by loveataturk
            I read Hyejinx1984's comment in the tread "working with turks". He says that he worked with 4 turks in an office, they were nice to him, but somehow he felt uneasy and "WANTED TO KILL THEM"...

            I think this is a problem, but nothing about "supposed" or "true" genocide. I simply think this is a "sick" comment to make, and this hyejinx forum guest shows criminal attitude.
            Interesting how out of context you took that post, but I suppose anyone would when trying to prove a point an dmake someone else look bad. I said what I was feeling.. it wasn't a choice I made or anything like that.. it was an involentary emtional reaction I got from it and I came here to discuss it with my brothers and sisters to try and come to grips with something I'm sure I'm not the only one who deals with it. Would you be so harsh about a black bus boy working in Beverly Hills who comes home frustrated that he's working FOR the people who did damage to his ancestors? would he not sit down with another black man and try to find some sort of closure in his emotions? xxxx you if you think you can tell me what I should and shouldn't feel.



            Originally posted by loveataturk
            Back to the topic: The more I think about the situation around 1915, the more I realize what could have happened: Armenians, thinking they finally had a chance to grasp the land of Turks (ottomans) while the Ottomans were "in their opinion" weakened by the war with Russians, attacked Turkish communities, murdering many Turks. Obviously the first murderers were Armenians, but not the general Armenian populus, just some sick-disgusting Armenian militia-men.

            The Ottomans, after successfully subduing the stupid Russians, turned back to face the rebelling and treacherous militia...of the Armenians. While delivering the "justified" response to the Armenian militia-losers, the situation got out of hand, and TOTALLY UNNECESSARY AND HATE-DRIVEN ATTACKS ON INNOCENT ARMENIANS was committed by the Ottoman troops...

            Disgustingly opportunistic Armenian militia-losers versus the frenzied Ottoman troops: the two true crime perpetrators of history that need to be remembered...

            Who paid the price? The innocent folk of decent Turkish-Armenians and Turks...
            I'll be honest, I'm usually of the belief that nothing is one sided, that even the most atrocious acts of history are the faults of both those who claim to be victims and those who are accused of being the perpetraitors. No one is innocent an dno one is completed guilty, this is a belief I truly hold...

            And I am not a hypocrit and I do not believe in double standards. Perhaps with some more research it could be true that Armenians aren't as innocent as we sound and may or may not have tried to hurt the Turkish government before hand. However, to say that Armenians in ANY WAY shape or form brought the Genocide upon themselves is complete esh poo poo.
            Last edited by HyeJinx1984; 08-26-2004, 12:10 PM.
            "All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

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            • #16
              Originally posted by Seapahn
              Mild-mannered? The dude's name is "loveataturk" and you have trouble understanding the bastard's agenda on this forum? Open your eyes people

              Being harsh and succumbing to someone elses agenda is not the same thing. My eyes are open so take your sad smilie elsewhere. People seem to overlook the fact that harsh language can be counterproductive.

              Comment

              • #17
                The analogy between native Indians of North America and the Armenians of Anatolia is not so bad, I almost agree. True, the land obviously belonged to the Armenians, who were the true inhabitants before Turks came from Middle Asia.

                And, by the way, my post does not claim that the Armenians brought the "counter-action" of Ottoman army on themselves. My post supposes that the "armenian militia" brought the counter-action on themselves. And I specifically said that the Ottoman forces possibly went into a "frenzy" (term borrowed from feeding frenzy used for sharks) and took their hate out on innocent Armenian civilians.It is just as possible that Armenian militia, unlike the decent general Armenian folk, was also committing attrocities on the Turkish folk...

                That said, in my opinion, the current Turkish Republic owes a certain debt to the people of Armenia of today. What is that debt?

                1. Invite representatives of the academy of Armenia to Turkey, Istanbul, and together open the Ottoman archives of early 20th century together. That way, both parties can honestly read and discuss the historical documents.
                2. Even if symbolic amounts, the government of Turkey should start paying "restoration" to Armenian families of Turkish descent, that would start a two-way peaceful cooperation.
                3. Turkish fear that such restoration would cost too much is irrelevant, because, within 3-4 years, if a friendlier atmosphere opens between Armenia and Turkey, mutual trade and tourism would quickly restore the financial balance.

                I propose 2 and 3, even if Turkey does not fully still acknowledge Armenian claim. Why? Because genocide or deportation, the net result has been tragedy for Armenians, and it is high time for a peaceful gesture from Turkey.

                As for ATATURK, his revolutions paved the way for Armenians-Greeks-Assyrians that is non-muslim communities to thrive in Turkey, despite the ill treatment by Ottomans during the Empire's decay stage. SECULARITY was established by Ataturk in the "democratic republic of Turkey", as well as the abolition of caliphacy.

                When radical Islamists quote hate on Ataurk, that is understandable. But for Armenian people to ill-quote him is, .....plain STUPIDITY and mis-information.

                You might want to focus on Enver Pasha first and foremost, but Ataturk had nothing much to do with Armenians. Actually, you would do well to learn that he is a Thessaloniki born Greco-Turk.

                Anyway, my previous message was not "hate" filled, despite some replies here. I still find my own government's total denial of 1915 fishy.

                Finally, I honestly feel that your replies to my post, given the fact I am a Turkish person, are on the whole well-mannered and decent. I thank you all for that. I am sure that when Turkish guests read my commnets, particularly the fact that I admit my government may very well be disguising facts, they will not be as polite as you Armenian forum guests.

                Thank you for allowing me to post here.
                Last edited by loveataturk; 08-26-2004, 11:26 PM. Reason: make it richer

                Comment

                • #18
                  1. Invite representatives of the academy of Armenia to Turkey, Istanbul, and together open the Ottoman archives of early 20th century together. That way, both parties can honestly read and discuss the historical documents.

                  Yeeeaaaa... last time that happened I believe all our leaders and intelectuals got slaughtered.

                  3. Turkish fear that such restoration would cost too much is irrelevant, because, within 3-4 years, if a friendlier atmosphere opens between Armenia and Turkey, mutual trade and tourism would quickly restore the financial balance.

                  Why should they want a friendly atmosphere when they and Azerbaijan can happily split Armenian in two and take a half each and make it part of their own countries and continue in their blissful 69ing with each other?

                  To be honest I think YOU have good ideas, but don't be naive enough in thinking your government is as nice as you are.
                  "All I know is I'm not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

                  Comment

                  • #19
                    Thank you hyejinx. Believe me, Turkey and Azerbajcan do not have as close ties as you would think, because Russia is still the dominant brother and Turkey would not want to confront Russia.
                    One of the main problems in Turkey today is, throughout Ottoman history, the Greeks and Armenians were the ones to teach Turks merchant and naval shipping, trade practices and laws. Turks often tended to be interested in army and becoming an officer. But when the Greek and Armenian and Greek societies no longer exist strongly in Turkey, TRADE and CULTURE suffered a bad blow. It still continues.

                    Instead of bargaining stupidly with the EU over small details, if Turkey could come to its senses and repair and rejuvenate relations with Greece and Armenia, the Turkish economy would recover much faster. But, to do that, Turkey has to swallow a difficult pill: Open its real documents on 18-19th and 20th century Ottoman documents, and if necessary (I think it is) , apologize through public announcement and also financial restorations to the Greeks and Armenians.

                    As I explained, even if the restorations cost, let's say, 25-30 billion USD, 3-4 years of honest and decent relations with both Armenia and Greece would suffice to make things on track financially.

                    And, the funniest part is, as long as this Greece-Armenia-Turkey issue is not peacefully and justice wise solved, noone will believe in Turkey becoming part of EU, including us, the Turkish citizens.

                    Any turk who really loves Turkey would be positive for a justice settlement with both Greece and Armenia. And honestly, I think what Armenia and Greece are really really looking for is "acceptance of responsibility" and "official apology", just like Germany did after WWII. I do not think money is the real problem for Armenians, I really do not think so.

                    Maybe you are right, not too many government officials in Turkey agree with me, but I am always hopeful, because the current situation is UNACCEPTABLE and also LOSE-LOSE.
                    Last edited by loveataturk; 08-27-2004, 04:33 AM.

                    Comment

                    • #20
                      Money is a BIG issue for Armenians.

                      Don't kid yourself.

                      The sovereign country of Armenia is so incredibly poor, that population is DECREASING due to migration elsewhere.

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