What say you NoThink? From German Consul report - July 1915

[winoman]

From the Consul in Aleppo (Roessler) to the Reichskanzler (Bethmann Hollweg)
Aleppo, 27 July 1915
Confidential

The following has become known to me concerning the deportation of the Armenians and the way in which it is being carried out:

1) As was to be expected after the dismissal of the local Vali Djelal Bey, the deportation has now been extended to the coastal strip of the Vilayet Aleppo.

2) According to news received by the Catholicos of Sis, 800 to 1000 men who had been sent from Diarbekr to the south, never arrived. It is presumed that they have all been murdered.

3) As was reported to me on 17th inst., it was observed in Rumkaleh, Biredjik and Djerabulus that bodies had been floating past on the Euphrates for a total of 25 days. The corpses were all bound together in the same way, two by two, back to back. This regularity indicates that they were not the result of butchery, but had been killed intentionally by the authorities. Rumour has it, and this is probable, that the bodies had been thrown into the river in Adiaman by soldiers. As is reported below, the bodies had stopped floating past for an interval of several days and then began again, in much larger
numbers. This time they were mainly the bodies of women and children.

4) in Tel Abiad, the Armenians in that town sold their daughters aged between 8 and 12 years, ... Those passing through Tell Abiad, the first groups of which came from Setun - preliminarily heading for Rakka - had been made apathetic by their fate and silently submitted to everything. Food has been given to them in sufficient quantities, but too irregularly. Where water is scarce to the south of Tell Abiad, the younger children are dying. In any case, many are falling victim to the strain. A whole group has already perished completely through lack of water. They were not able to take any agricultural implements with them. What are the survivors going to do once they reach their destination?

5) In view of the severity of the orders given by the government, the treatment of those on the move depends more or less on the good will of the individual officials and gendarmes through whose district they just happen to be passing. So sometime they are fed, sometimes not.
At present in Aleppo, where the food supplied by the government was sometimes insufficient

6) The signs are increasing that the government, either intentionally or unintentionally, is permitting the implementation of its measures to be taken off its hands and turned into the slaughter of the Armenians, which seems to be gradually taken over by Circassians and Kurds.

7) in one village, some hours to the south of the town, the men were separated from the women. The men were slaughtered to death and lay to the right and left of the road along which the women then had to pass. One group of women and girls was completely plundered between Mardin and Ras ul Ain by Bedouins. Those whom the Bedouins liked were dragged off by them. What will happen to those poor souls when they penetrate even deeper into Bedouin country?

8) One local Armenian told me about a family from Kharput who is related to him and comprised 17 people. 7 men were dragged off; their fate is unknown. 2 women died as a result of the strain of the journey, 8 people have arrived in Ras ul Ain. Even so, the worst part of the route only begins in Ras ul Ain.

9) After being expelled from Constantinople, the well-known Armenian Members of Parliament, Zohrab and Wartkes, recently stayed a while in Aleppo. They knew that they would meet their death if the order of the government to banish them to Diarbekir was carried out. Thus, I informed the Imperial Embassy of all this. According to tales told by the gendarmes who were accompanying them and who have now returned here, whereby they had met robbers who just happened to have shot the two Members of Parliament, there can no longer be any doubt that the government had arranged to have them murdered en route between Urfa and Diarbekr.

10) an official of the Baghdad Railway handed me the record of which I am enclosing a copy and to which I now wish to make reference. I do not deem it necessary for me to repeat the gruesome contents here in my report. The official, whose name I can produce if required, can vouch for the truth of the record, respectively for the care taken in his investigations. He has been known to me for many years as an absolutely reliable man.
In my humble opinion, the described treatment of the Armenian people deserves particular attention not only for other reasons, but also because it is being put down by wide circles of the population, including the Muslim side, to the influence of the Germans on the Turkish government. It is said that Germany incited the Turkish government to take the decision to crush the Armenian people until they are completely insignificant. The Turkish government will presumably do everything to encourage this attitude. It will be pleased to shift the blame for the odium of its disciplinary actions onto us. But this will mean Germany's name being dragged through the mud. My previous telegraphic and written reports must have demonstrated that the Turkish government has gone much further than the scope of justified defence measures in an effort to counteract actual and possible subversive Armenian activities, but instead, by extending their decrees, the execution of which they have made the duty of the authorities in an extremely harsh and most brusque manner, to include women and children, are consciously aiming to achieve the downfall of the largest possible proportions of the Armenian people by using methods which are borrowed from antiquity, but which are unworthy of a government that wishes to remain in alliance with Germany. As it is at war with the Entente, and whereas the German ally does not consider the time to be favourable for an objection, it has tried - and of this there can be no doubt - to take advantage of the opportunity to rid itself of the Armenian question for the future by leaving intact as few closed Armenian communities as possible. It has sacrificed a magnitude of innocent people together with the few guilty ones.

In a memorandum entitled "The Ottoman government against enemy accusations" published on 9 June in the Norddeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, the Turkish governments claims that the deportations are temporary. It explained, "If certain Armenians have had to temporarily resettle in other areas of the Empire, then this was because they were living in the areas of war …" Could it be taken at its word? Are Beilan, Soukluk, Kessab, etc. really war areas? Is the presence of women and children dangerous in those areas, if nearly all the men have been called up anyway?

On its first issue of 13 July, No. 192, the Norddeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung is publishing a declaration by the officious Ottoman news agency "Agence Milli" which protests against the claim by the Gazette de Lausanne that the Ottoman government was providing protection against the excesses committed against the Armenians living in Turkey and these excesses often ended in butchery.
Unfortunately, many things will speak in favour of this claim by the Gazette de Lausanne.
My telegraphic report on the unusually well-witnessed slaughters in Tell Ermen had already been presented at the time of publication of this denial. Major von Mikusch took photographs of the findings and is in a position to submit them. It has been proven that these murders on the part of the Kurds were carried out in the presence of the armed forces of the Turkish government, but probably even with their active participation.
The Turkish government has driven its Armenian subjects, the innocent ones, mark you, into the desert in thousands upon thousands[2], under the pretext of having to remove them from the war areas, exempting neither the sick nor pregnant women nor the families of conscripted men, has given them both food and water in insufficient quantities and irregularly, has done nothing against the epidemics which have broken out amongst them, has driven the women to such desperation that they set out their babies and newborns by the wayside, has sold their adolescent daughters, with the result that they have thrown themselves even with their small children into the river. It has left them to the mercy of their guards and therefore to dishonour; an escort which dragged away the girls and sold them. It has driven them into the hands of the Bedouins, who have plundered and kidnapped them. It has had the men illegally shot in lonely places and has the bodies of its victims fed to the dogs and birds of prey. It is supposed to have arranged for the murders of the representatives whom it had sent into exile. It has released prisoners from the prisons, put them in soldiers' uniforms and sent them to the areas where the deportees would be passing through. It has called up Circassian volunteers and set them onto the Armenians. But what does it offer as semi-official explanations? "The Ottoman government ... is extending its benevolent protection to all honest Christians living peacefully in Turkey ..."
I was not able to believe my own eyes when I saw this explanation and I can find no words to describe the depth of this untruth.

For the Turkish government will not be able to deny responsibility for all that has happened, for the results of the lack of welfare and foresight, for the corruptness of the performing bodies and for the conditions in the eastern parts of their area that border on anarchy. After all, it has indeed intentionally driven the deportees into this chaos. It will have no choice but to bear the responsibility, even if it should lose control over the elements it has called, as is particularly likely to happen in the Vilayet Diarbekr. Just like the destruction of the Armenians is implied in this country as being a result of German incitement, the Turkish government is trying to hide its behaviour from the European public behind our authority.
I wish to recommend Your Excellency to consider whether Turkish explanations of the Armenian question are still suitable for publication in the German press and whether or not there is a danger of our being compromised by our allies.

I will be sending this same report to the Imperial Embassy.

Roessler

[winoman]

Enclosure

Aleppo, 27 July 1915

Record

Enclosure to No. 81

On Saturday, 24 July 1915, I brought with me 8 Armenians from the road to Ras ul Ain; 3 women, 1 fourteen-your-old girl and 4 girls aged between 5 - 8 years. One of the women whose husband had been killed and burned before her eyes between Charput and Ras ul Ain, had been so badly violated in the station at Touem by staff of the railway (7 - 8 men) that it was doubted whether she would survive at all - for 2 days she kept falling into unconsciousness and is now in my home, being cared for by my wife and receiving medical treatment. We buried her 7-month-old child, her only son, who was starved to the bone, in Nuss Tell at Engineer Linsmeyer's. I found the second woman with her two daughters in a workers' tent in a stone quarry. Sitting in front of the tent in a semi-circle, its front facing the open side of the tent in which the woman, as the only person, was cowering in a corner, was 1 sergeant and about 15 soldiers. Engineer Linsmeyer had given me a gendarme to accompany me and he fetched the woman forcibly from the tent. We brought her as quickly as possible to Nuss Tell to safety. We found the 14-year-old girl at the station at Hodja in the hut of a 22 - 25 year-old station leader who is unmarried. He had tried to rape the girl, but she had resisted for 2 days. On the third day, the station leader left the girl for 24 hours without food in order to make her bend to his lust. The girl was handed over to us by Engineer Linsmeyer, who had threatened to report the matter to Director Hasenfratz by telegraph. In Ras ul Ain, there are about 1600 women and children at present, the remainder of several thousands who were expelled from Charput and the surrounding area together with their husbands. Among these 1600 persons there is no longer one single man or male person over the age of 12 years. The healthy as well as the sick have to lie in the sun, without any food or protection of any kind in temperatures of 43° C, at the mercy of the accompanying soldiers. Engineer Linsmeyer, who last month had spoken to me of the "Armenian scum", said to me literally, "I am not a man who is moved easily, but at the sight of these poor people I was not able to hold back the tears. I did not think it possible that something like this could happen in our century." A sergeant by the name of Sueleman abducted 18 women and girls and sold them to Arabs and Kurds for 2 - 3 medjidies. A Turkish inspector said to me, "We no longer have any idea how many women and girls have been abducted by Arabs and Kurds, either by force or with the approval of the government. This time we have done our job on the Armenians in a way we have desired for a long time; out of every ten, we have not left nine alive."While I have been writing this, my wife has returned from a walk through the town and tells me with tears in her eyes that she has just met a transport of about 800 Armenians, barefooted and torn, dragging themselves along with their few possessions on their backs.

In Besnije, the entire population of about 1800 women and children and only a few men was deported; they were supposed to be transported to Urfa. By the river Goeksu, a tributary of the Euphrates, they had to take off their clothes, were then all massacred and thrown into the river.

During the last few days, corpses were seen floating down the river, about 170 on one day, on others 50, 60 and more. Engineer Awdis spotted about 40 corpses while taking a short ride out with his chief accountant. The corpses which had drifted onto the banks were eaten by dogs and those that landed on sandbanks, etc. in the river became food for the vultures. Most recently the bodies are mainly those of women and children.
The above-mentioned 800 Armenians had been expelled from the area around Marasch, from Doengeli and Tschueruekkos. They were told they would be brought to Aintab and should take enough provisions with them for 2 days. When they approached Aintab, they were told there had been some mistake. They were destined for Nisib, but in Nisib: you are to continue to Bumbudsch, in B.: you are to go to Bab, etc. And finally, after 17 days, they arrived in Aleppo. In those 17 days, they received no food whatsoever from the government, they had to exchange their few belongings for bread, near Nisib to sell belongings for 5 Turkish pounds and hand the proceeds over to the accompanying gendarmes. They were threatened that otherwise the women and children would be abducted for the night and violated.
The women who arrived in Ras ul Ain had to undress completely several times during their journey before the eyes of the accompanying gendarmes. Their clothes were searched for money, even their hair and … private parts were examined to see whether they had hidden money there.
One woman's eldest daughter was taken away from her forcefully. In desperation she took her two remaining children and threw herself into the Euphrates. A businessman told me that he had seen with his own eyes how a woman was delivered of a child by the river. She then took the baby and threw it in desperation into the river.

Said, an immigrant from Tripoli, groom for Mr. Linsmeyer for the past 4 years, employed at a monthly salary of 400 piasters, volunteered for war service in order, as he said, to also be able to "slaughter" some Armenians. As his pay, he was promised a house in A., an Armenian village near Urfa. Two Circassians employed by the storeman Seemann in Tell Abiad also volunteered for the same reason. The village elder in Tschadakli, a Circassian village near Goeksun, explained to an acquaintance of mine: Ew jikmak itschün giderler (they are going out there to ruin families).
In Arab Punar, a German-speaking Turkish Major explained to me: I and my brother have each brought an Armenian girl with us from Ras ul Ain. We found them on our journey. We are very "angry" with the Germans for doing this sort of thing. When I contradicted him he said: Our general staff officer is a German, v. d. Goltz is a Commander and so many German officers are in our army - our Koran does not allow the sort of treatment that the Armenians are having to tolerate at present. In Nuss Tell, a Muslim supervisor said similar things to an accountant (Elias Salfetty). When I took him to task in the presence of others, he replied, "Effendim, it is not just me who is saying such things, everyone here is saying the same." Recently a Mulsim shopowner told me after the news of a victory on the part of the Turks: The Vali is not making the victory publicly known yet, he is afraid that the Muslims would attack Christians (meaning the Syrians, but not the Armenians) in their joy.

[winoman]

And more - so much more - eh weren't the Germans Ottoman Allies?

From the Administrator in Erzerum (Scheubner-Richter) to the Ambassador on Extraordinary Mission in Constantinople (Hohenlohe-Langenburg)

J.No. 580/Secret Report No.23
Erserum, 5 August 1915

The evacuation of the Armenians has now been completed to a certain degree, i.e. there are no more Armenians in the administrative district of the local consulate. Thus, it seems to me to be appropriate to report briefly on the incidents that have taken place over the past months in connection with the expulsion of the Armenians

....

Summarising my reports and my activities in the Armenian question, I would like to note the following:

It would be taking things too far to go into the causes of the Armenian unrests here and to examine whether these could have been avoided by effective disciplinary action and negotiations on the part of the government. As far as I know, nothing along this line was done in time. Furthermore, it is a matter of course that in those cases where rebellions took place at the instigation of the Armenian revolutionary committees and Russian emissaries, severe disciplinary action should be taken against the guilty parties. In fact, I would have expected and wished for much stricter immediate preventive action by the government and the military authorities at all the threatened points; not, though, as usually happened, that retaliatory measures were taken afterwards. However, in my opinion there is absolutely no evidence for a generally planned and prepared Armenian rebellion.

Thus, in Vilayet Erserum for example, neither weapons nor compromising documents were found. If a rebellion had been planned here, then the most advantageous moment for such an event would have been in January, when the Russians were stationed 35 km from Erserum and Erserum's garrison held only a few hundred gendarmes, while in Erserum's labour battalions alone there were 3 - 4000 Armenians.

Although it is unfortunate, it seems natural to me that border inhabitants of a different faith and nationality who are oppressed and treated badly by their own government and, thus, dissatisfied, would join up with a victoriously advancing enemy of the same faith who, in addition, poses as a liberator and entices them with promises, and this has also happened in other theatres of war. On the other hand, political and severe military defence measures are just as natural. But it seems to me that it is unnatural and unworthy of a government that claims to be civilised if it first takes no measures at all in order to prevent the foreseeable uprising of some parts of a people who are rightly dissatisfied, be it by means of suitable military precautions, be it through political negotiations; but rather, practically inviting it through its inactivity and the provocative behaviour of its police authorities and "tchetes".

In doing so, it has also left large circles of its own people to the mercy of the anarchy of the masses aroused by racism and "the madness of retaliation". But the same government then takes advantage of this opportunity to culturally and economically annihilate and exterminate an entire race as a consequence of and a punishment for the agitation deliberately or unintentionally caused by its own inactivity.

The fact that this extermination is possible, that tens of thousands of Armenians allow themselves to be slaughtered by a small number of Kurds and irregulars without defending themselves (as happened here), seems to be proof of how unwilling these people are to fight and to act as revolutionaries. The Armenians, especially the inhabitants of the cities, these "Jews of the East", are certainly cunning tradespeople, as well as shortsighted politicians, but as far as I have come to know them, most of them are not active revolutionaries. If they were, and had they had weapons, they would most certainly have violently resisted the evacuation, since they were superior in number and their death was a certainty. But this only happened in a very few places, probably where the revolutionary committees had their seat. Everywhere else the evacuation was carried out without any incidents, and later they meekly allowed themselves to be slaughtered. The timorousness of the Turkish Armenians is possibly only surpassed by the Turks' fear of them.

On the basis of these considerations and in view of the entire situation, I considered it to be my duty as a representative of the German government not to regard the actions of the government against the Armenians and the measures taken against them in silence.

[thinktwice]

You can check out organized rebellion and more

Like US President Mr. Bush said it's part of Armenian History.
And here is the part of Turkish History that armenians cannot deny:

"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."

Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91.

"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."

A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. Quoted from Richard Hovannisian, Armenia on the Road to Independence, Berkeley, 1967, p. 41-42.

"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."

Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)

"In history it happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia 2.5 million Muslims were killed by the Armenians in the worst possible way imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened. The Armenian General Dro, the butcher was the architect of this Armenian genocide of Muslims, 1914-1920."

Arto Derounian (as 'John Roy Carlson'), Armenian Affairs magazine Winter issue, 1949-50, page 19, footnote. (Derounian's first name was "Avedis," and "Arthur" is the name he usually used; the author's "Under Cover" was a best seller in 1944.)

"...When Turkey had not yet entered the war...Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks..."

Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923. (The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.)


" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"

Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.


"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself."

Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination."

Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.

"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"

Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.


"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."

Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38

"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."

Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.


"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives."

F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tartar" Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan,turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse]. According to Justin McCarthy's "Death and Exile"

"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."

Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities.

"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."

Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the
Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by
the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

G. Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921

"...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..."

Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301

"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."

Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87).

[winoman]

hahaha - good ones. The 2.5 million statements are so obviously false to not deserve comment - John Roy Carlson? Come now - he is no historian but a man with a serious grudge to say anything to discredit Armenians and this has been shown. As for the rest - so much is out of context. That Russian Armenains and even some Ottoman Armenians who rebelled against severe Ottoman and Kurdish oppresion did cross the border and join up with the Russians is not at issue - it is/was a known phenomenon - just as Turckick peoples from the Russian provinces joined with the Ottoman Army. That massacres some were commited against Turkish civilians is also known - there were massacres on all sides by one set of villagers against another - though with a preponderance of such commited by roving Kurdish bands against Armenians and much of the Armenain activities were in self defense - though there can be no doubt that in some places excesses did occur. It is quite a different thing to accuse genocide. Prior to 1917 there was no Armenian government nor an Army - and most of these occurances (of Armenian participating in any kind of slaughter of innocent Muslim villagers) occured after 1917 and occured by Armenians who were either refugees from the Genocide - where they had witnessed and survived atrocities agaist themselves and their families or by (former) Russian Armenian troops who likewise had experienced slaughter of their people by Turks and Azeris in proceeding decades - this is all well documented. (and even your hero McCarthy has admitted to this in a public debate with Armenain historian Leon Marshalian that occured in Istanbul in 1990! When put on the spot he found it difficult to lie and admitted that his ues of the period 1914-22 for his claims was in fact incorrect and that he should have said from 1917 on! - after the Genocide - not before - thus no justification!) The Armenians had the misfortune that their edicated leaders were all killed by the Turks leaving a government of amatures who could not control many of the outraged troops - so atrocities did occur - funny how Armenian can admit this - but Turks cannot admit at all the very well documented and must greater atrocities comited by their side. Additionally these incidents - most which occured after the actual Genocide (and ealier massive massacres of Armenians within the Ottoman EMpire by the Sultan and Kurdish bands) - pale in comparison and cannot at all be equated with those commited by the Turkish government - using the full state power - in an organized capacity to exterminate the Armenian. There is no corroborated series of actual accounts to at all reach the numbers of 2.5 million (give me a break - this is rediculous propaganda - though I've seen figures which suggest (between 1917-1922) 40,000 - and I agree that is no small number - but even this is not verified). It is funny how you Turtks are so quick to glom onto made up figures yet dispute multiply corroborated sources when it comes to known Armenian deaths as a result of the wiely observed and documented Genocide commited against the Armenians. The proof that is available - such as from the German archives, from (Turkish) admissions and documentary evidence made available at the post-war military tribunals - is that there was no organized Armenain rebellion - no significant incidence of violence by Ottoman Armenains against Turks and no justification for the organized slaughter and extermination of innocent Armenians - this is fact. Nothing you can dream up will counter this as the facts are known and understood. Did some Armenains commit atrocities - yes. This is sad and unfortunate - but it is a gross exaggeration and entirely untrue to claim that 2.5 million - or anything close - were killed by Armenians - there was no capavcity among Armenains to do this even if they wished - it is so absurd and absolutely no one who knows anything takes any heed of this claim BTW. Oh and regarding Van - well the Turks fled the city on news of the advancing Russians (they were not killed by Armenains - this is a manipulation of data based on an incomplete recounting of what happend - so 1,500 remained - OK) . I'm sure that they were concerned about retribution for the slaughter of Armenians of the city and surrounding jurisdictions. Many other of the quotes you offer here are misrepresentations and taken out of context as well. This issue has been extensively studied and the evidence has been thoughouly checked. You mention archives - well check out those German archives. I have provided a few of a great many examples where the Ottoman allies were chagrined by what they saw - and they would have loved to report Armenain atrocities to counter such reports of such on the part of the Turks - but were unable to come up with much of anything at all. And I find it odd that with all the Turkish claims of such armed rebellion and the like on the part of the Armenians that not a single deporation caravan was ever saved - or even attacked by all of these Armenains raoming the countryside alledgedly though the very areas where these caravans passed - how could that have been possible? And there were very extremely few instances of any resistance on the part of Armenians when they were led away - some rebellion.

[winoman]

Funny - NoTurkthink - the tetedeturk site you link to...

...has just recently been declared as a racist site along with a number of Nazi Holocaust denial and other hate sites. Some source to rely on for "historical information" eh?

http://www.commission-droits-homme.fr/travauxCncdh/InternetRaciste.html

from above:

1 – Critères d’évaluation des sites


Une étude des contenus racistes impose de définir préalablement les éléments objectifs qui permettent leur évaluation, la caractérisation de l’acte raciste pouvant déprendre de plusieurs critères, juridiques, culturels, politiques.

2 –1 Liste

...

Tête de turc

è Tête de turc : négation du génocide arménien

Précédant les sites, la négation du génocide arménien sur les usenet date de longtemps. Déjà de 1992 à 1994, près de 7000 articles négationnistes avaient été diffusés par un même individu. A l’inverse des sites niant la shoah, ceux contestant le génocide arménien reçoivent le renfort de pages Internet officielles de certains ministères turcs (culture). Comme dans le cas de la négation de la shoah, les négationnistes procèdent à une réécriture de l’histoire en renvoyant la responsabilité des pogroms sur les arméniens eux-mêmes. Plusieurs pages en langue française dissertent ainsi sur le nombre de morts et sur la terreur arménienne. Des sites multi langues dont le français, basés en Turquie, se consacrent alors à la négation du génocide arménien ; Le site " tête de turc " fourni ainsi un argumentaire qui qualifie le drame du peuple arménien de " prétendu génocide arménien "

[winoman]

"...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..."

Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301

Funny - I have looked all through this book and cannot find this quote at all. Of course its quite absurd to claim that "thousands of Armenians...had been trained as soldiers" in "every Turkish city" - come now...

But, of couorse, concerning Van I did find these quotes in Morgenthaus book:

"The city of Van, which is the capital of the vilayet, lies on the eastern shores of the lake of the same name; it is the one large town in Asia Minor in which the Armenian population is larger than the Moslem.

In the fall of 1914, its population of about 30,000 people represented one of the most peaceful and happy and prosperous communities in the Turkish Empire."

"The requisitions of army supplies fell far more heavily upon the Christian than upon the Mohammedan elements in Van, just as they did in every other part of Turkey. The Armenians had to stand quietly by while the Turkish officers appropriated all their cattle, all their wheat, and all their goods of every kind, giving them only worthless pieces of paper in exchange"

"The Turkish Government has made much of the "treasonable " behaviour of the Armenians of Van and have even urged it as an excuse for their subsequent treatment of the whole race. Their attitude illustrates once more the perversity of the Turkish mind. After massacring hundreds of thousands of Armenians in the course of thirty years, outraging their women and girls, and robbing and maltreating them in every conceivable way, the Turks still apparently believed that they had the right to expect from them the most enthusiastic "loyalty"."

"Though the air, all during the autumn and winter of 1914-15, was filled with premonitions of trouble, the Armenians behaved with remarkable self-restraint For years it had been the Turkish policy to provoke the Christian population into committing overt acts, and then seizing upon such misbehaviour as an excuse for massacres."

"When the war started, the Central Government recalled Tahsin Pasha, the conciliatory governor of Van, and replaced him with Djevdet Bey, a brother-in-law of Enver Pasha. This act in itself was most disquieting. ... Djevdet had spent the larger part of his life at Van; he was a man of unstable character, friendly to non-Moslems one moment, hostile the next, hypocritical, treacherous, and ferocious according to the worst traditions of his race. He hated the Armenians and cordially sympathized with the long-established Turkish plan of solving the Armenian problem. There is little question that he came to Van with definite instructions to exterminate all Armenians in this province..."

"...the Turks' army turned aside and invaded their own territory of Van. Instead of fighting the trained Russian army of men, they turned their rifles, machine guns, and other weapons upon the Armenian women, children, and old men in the villages of Van. Following their usual custom, they distributed the most beautiful Armenian women among the Moslems, sacked and burned the Armenian villages, and massacred uninterruptedly for days. On April 15th, about 500 young Armenian men of Akantz were mustered to hear an order of the Sultan; at sunset they were marched outside the town and every man shot in cold blood. This procedure was repeated in about eighty Armenian villages in the district north of Lake Van, and in three days 24,000 Armenians were murdered in this atrocious fashion."

"Djevdet Bey...demanded that Van furnish him immediately 4,000 soldiers, the people were naturally in no mood to accede to his request. When we consider what had happened before and what happened subsequently, there remains little doubt concerning the purpose which underlay this demand. Djevdet, acting in obedience to orders from Constantinople, was preparing to wipe out the whole population, and his purpose in calling for 4,000 able-bodied men was merely to massacre them, so that the rest of the Armenians might have no defenders. The Armenians, parleying to gain time, offered to furnish five hundred soldiers and to pay exemption money for the rest; now, however, Djevdet began to talk aloud about "rebellion," and his determination to "crush" it at any cost. "If the rebels fire a single shot," he declared, "I shall kill every Christian man, woman, and" (pointing to his knee) "every child, up to here."

"The whole Armenian fighting force consisted of only 1,500 men; they had only 300 rifles and a most inadequate supply of ammunition, while Djevdet had an army of 5,000 men, completely equipped and supplied. Yet the Armenians fought with the utmost heroism and skill; they had little chance of holding off their enemies indefinitely, but they knew that a Russian army was fighting its way to Van and their utmost hope was that they would be able to defy the besiegers until these Russians arrived."

"After nearly five weeks of sleepless fighting, the Russian army suddenly appeared and the Turks fled into the surrounding country, where they found appeasement for their anger by further massacres of unprotected Armenian villagers. Doctor Ussher, the American medical missionary whose hospital at Van was destroyed by bombardment, is authority for the statement that, after driving off the Turks, the Russians began to collect and to cremate the bodies of Armenians who had been murdered in the province, with the result that 55,000 bodies were burned.

I have told this story of the "Revolution" in Van not only because it marked the first stage in this organized attempt to wipe out a whole nation, but because these events are always brought forward by the Turks as a justification of their subsequent crimes. As I shall relate, Enver, Talaat, and the rest, when I appealed to them in behalf of the Armenians, invariably instanced the "revolutionists" of Van as a sample of Armenian treachery. The famous "Revolution," as this recital shows, was merely the determination of the Armenians to save their women's honour and their own lives, after the Turks, by massacring thousands of their neighbours, had shown them the fate that awaited them."

[winoman]

Hey looky what I found!

Go down to post #65 - its the exact same post that NothinkTrusk just made here - copied form another Turk racist post on a Jewish forum.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=118312#post118312

I am finding that this claim of 2.5 million Turks suposedly killed by Armenians and admitted by such is entirely a fabrication. People can say anything - with whatever motives - and sometimes people have a grudge - even against their own people - thus the Carlson character and this supposed Agop Zahoryan as well - if such and such book ever existed at all...

and surprise surprise - our old friend Teturken is there as well - no doubt he is noturkthink one and the same I imagine...

[winoman]

As these false charges were posted before - so have they been debunked...

reply to Mete quotes

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Hello, since reading these quotes I have asked a friend of mine who does research in armenian genocide issues to review these publications and this is what he sent back to me, I thought it was interesting... I am directly copypasting from his email.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mete
"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."

[I]Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91

.

This quote is a forgery, first of all there is a grammar mistake in the title of this supposed work that won't passes as incognito for editors “stationed” in London. Skeptical but still open minded enough, over a year ago, I placed an inter loaning order to find the book, the book is nowhere to be found around all the libraries around the world affiliated with the inter loaning program. Surprising enough, even those libraries in Turkey that are included in the system have no copy of the work in question.

The books existance has been fabricated in the newsgroups in 90s, not a single copy seems to exist... even from the Londons largest library.



Quote:
"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."

[I]A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. Quoted from Richard Hovannisian, Armenia on the Road to Independence, Berkeley, 1967, p. 41-42.




Isn't it quite amusing to find out here again the famous Lalayan quote? More amusing is the fact that many different flavors of this quote were all around the web, like “Muslim” being changed by the words Turks and Azeris. What about the quote in question, not from Richard Hovannesians work,(not to say that some other sites claims that it comes from the work “Patriotism Perverted”) but rather the original Revolutsionniy Vostok ? An inter loaning order gave no results. Not finding the original, I restrained myself using the second source referring to it.

Has this quote anything to do with the Ottoman Empire and 1915-1917, where most of the genocide happened? No!!! Actually, this quotes come from a said Lalayan, whose identity seems not existing in any other records, whom was allegedly a close friend of Shaumian.

Interesting of course. Whom was Shaumian??? He was a traitor to the Armenian nation whom comploted with the Soviets to get Armenia “bolshevised,” he was like Lalayan, his alleged closest friend under the command of the Red Army, against the Armenians. No wonder that “Revolutsionniy Vostok” is nowhere to be found, it is a Bolshevic material, the sort of periodical quite common during those years covering the heros of the Red Army. Actually he sound to be a Soviet Hero more than anything else... and even the date of the alleged material, it is claimed that he was a Dashnak. Let see if this has any sense at all. The date of the material? Late 1918, at that time already over a million Armenians died in the genocide, so this material won't justify what has been already done. Is it possible that in the Middle of the Russian Revolution, started in 1917, a communist Armenian be a Dashnak, being a close friend of a traitor that was one of the leading figures of the Bolshevisation in that region; be a Dashnak himself? NOPE!!! And what is the region in question? Nachikevan, and this in late 1918, and NOT!!! The Ottoman.

Have anyone any idea of the Armenian population of Nachikevan? Take a map of the world, find Armenia, and see where Nachikevan is... as you know, it is now a part of Azerbaijan. Has it any natural border with Azerbaijan? NO!!! It is between Turkey and Armenia. It was part of historic Armenia, while Armenians were one of the most populous population there, there is no reported Armenian living there as of now. Where are they? Do you know why Nachikevan that has no border with Azerbaijan, is part of it?

Ataturks companion of arm Karabekir, considered in Turkey as a national hero, with General Halil, whom wrote in his own memoirs having butchered 300,000 Armenians with his men, were sent there butchering the Armenians and comploted with the Bolchevics to get Nachikevan and Karabagh, and other Armenian regions to be separated from Armenia, to be sure that never ever an Armenia will have the possibility to exist. Karabekir himself wrote in his memoirs when planning to do this: “Armenia, destroy for eternity.”

And now, you have mete quoting a Bolshevic trash, that its sources is not found, and even if found, will end up being a blade with two cutting edges.

[winoman]

reply to Mete quotes - part 2

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[QUOTE=mete]

Quote:
"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."

Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)



This material has no relevancy, 1878 has nothing to do with what happened in 1915.



Quote:
"In history it happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia 2.5 million Muslims were killed by the Armenians in the worst possible way imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened. The Armenian General Dro, the butcher was the architect of this Armenian genocide of Muslims, 1914-1920."

[I]Arto Derounian (as 'John Roy Carlson'), Armenian Affairs magazine Winter issue, 1949-50, page 19, footnote. (Derounian's first name was "Avedis," and "Arthur" is the name he usually used; the author's "Under Cover" was a best seller in 1944.)



This quote is a pure fabrication and does not exist, it is a known fabrication of Serdar Argic, the legendary newsgroup spammer and forger.



Quote:
"...When Turkey had not yet entered the war...Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks..."

[I]Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923. (The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.)



First of all, Darounians version of the work is not the Original Armenian language published Katchadounis Manifesto, not only are they not the same, but the first 7-8 pages are supposed to be Verbatims, and are not concordant with the original manifesto. And the mistakes are obvious.

First, let me explain you why, Erzerum was part of Ottoman, the decision taken during the Erzeroum Congree by the General Committee, was for the Ottoman Armenians, whom lived in the Ottoman soil. It is impossible for Katchadouni to have actually written something like this, because he was well aware of the fact that there was two Armenia, Russian Armenia and Ottoman Armenia, the Dashnak committee living in the Ottoman represented Ottoman Armenia, Armenians in Trans Caucasia were Russian Armenians under the Russian commands. Furthermore, had the Ottoman not exposed its intention soon during the war, with their plan of an Armenian province consisting of Ottoman AND Russian Armenia; the Russian Armenians would have never organized in the Caucasian front to prevent an Ottoman incursion. Read the official letter found in Uras files collections, from the Press Organ of the Dashnaktiutun, and it will confirm this fact.

In fact, the first 7-8 pages are not in the Manifesto, and no wonder that all the materials that denialist sources were able to use, are all in the first pages that are called Verbatim and where the differences between the original are the most important.

Darounian is far from being a credible source, since the material in question was published during an era of propaganda war between Bolshevic Armenians(like Darounian) and Dashnakist Armenians.

And I would as well want to remind that Katachdouni was one of the leading figures of the Alexandripole Investigations, if you knew what this is, you'll know why Darounians version of the original was far from being accurate.

Beside that, Katachdouni was under Soviet comments charged to justify the Societisation of Armenia and propagaise about a so-called inability from Armenian political movements to govern an independent Armenia.

In conclusion, Darounians version is not the original Manifesto, but rather a propaganda tool, one of those used mutually by two Armenian camps in the 30s to 50s.(read about the whole affair leading to the Montreux Convention and its conclusion.)