What say you NoThink? From German Consul report - July 1915

[TomServo]

Me is not taking you serious, either, -thinktwice-

What the hell does that sentence mean? Have you translated it from Turkish or something? It doesn't really serve as an answer to my question.

[winoman]

I remind you one sentence of historians. They stated "Does it matter who are we? Turkish Historians and Armenian Historians... We are historians of all...". Maybe you are not capable of thinking like this eh?

I really think you should insert one of yoru favorite phrases here - "So-called" in from of the term "Turkish Historian" - an oxymoron if there ever was an example of such....

[thinktwice]

Yeah i know who said that... Taner Akēam

He is one of our oxymoron historian supporting you... LOOOOOOL

How pathetic...

I'm so sad for American people who have to live with people like you...

[TomServo]

I'm so sad for American people who have to live with people like you...

They don't seem to mind.

[Crimson Glow]

Yeah you are parrots because you don't even know or understand what happened before WWI, during war and after. Always telling the same so-called genocide. Do you think you can handle archives ok here we go...

Am i going to believe you or OTTOMAN ARCHIVES?

Don't make me laugh anymore...

If you don't want to laugh anymore, I suggest you don't read back over your own writings. "Am I going to believe you, or Ottoman archives"???? Are you freaking KIDDING me? Do I really have to state the obvoius as to why this is a ridiculous line of reasoning??? I certainly hope not. Further more, here we are, at nearly a century of denial, and your government just now opens up their archives?? That doesn't seem the slightest bit odd to you? Would you judge the character of a person from the way his house appears after he/she has had ample warning and time to clean it up? Please, thinktwice, I'm trying to be as civil as possible about this subject, but for the love of god, analyze what you're saying. Perhaps there are some valid things in those archives, and I'm not asking you to dismiss it all together, but to blindly say I'd take their word over yours.....that's just not a very intelligent way to view a, as you admitted countless times, heavily politically laden matter, especially in the political house of the accused party.

As far as understanding what happened pre-WWI, I addressed that head on in my last post, which, again, you conveniently overlooked/ignored. We cannot have a discussion if you're going to continually pick and choose what you want to argue. And enough with the ridiculous "parrot" remarks. Don't forget, the Turkish do the same. Since you guys seem to enjoy "surveys" and "examples of conversations" so much, here's how you guys have come off sounding so far (and I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, I'm simply stating how it appears):

Armenian: What about the numbers your various historians give not matching up with the stories they provide?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: What about the fact that there are many many Turkish & Turkish ally witnesses that disagree with that?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: What about all the Armenians in the Turkish army who unfortunately had to fight/kill fellow Armenians in the Russian army due to their loyalty to the Ottoman Empire?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: But....how did such a small, insignificant amount of Armenian rebels (since you admitted "the mighty Ottoman Empire wasn't afraid of Armenians", which in itself, blows away the exiled for treachery theory you cling to) kill so many Turks? Don't you think you're possibly including the number the Russians killed into one lump sum figure?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: Why has it taken nearly 9 decades for Turkey to open the Ottoman archives?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: So what exactly is your story?

1. There couldn't have been 1.5 million Armenians killed, because there were only 1.2+/- million or so to begin with.
2. The Armenians did the slaughtering of 500,000+ Turks, even though the entire Armenian population consisted of 1 million or less.
3. There may have been 1.5 million killed, but it was due to them turning on us, initiating warfare between us (because all 1.5 million citizens were part of that war).
4. It is unfortunate that so many Armenians died, but we had nothing to do with it/was out of our control: It was the Kurds and the criminals we let loose who did the killing while we were peacefully migrating the Armenians for their own protection.
5. The Ottoman Empire is not responsible for the 1.5 million Armenians killed because Talat was not acting out on OUR orders! He was a radical/dissenter the OE couldn't control, and initiated his own agenda against our will.

Etc (some of the MANY, MANY reasons for denial I've come across).....

Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.

That's not a parrot. That's a broken record! Let's try and skip past the scratch/imperfection it's stuck on, shall we?

Your particular (not Turks as a whole, as I've shown/listed) line of defense which you keep reverting to boils down to "Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened. Why do I choose this story? Because OUR archives and OUR historians SAY so"! You don’t find that the least bit silly/biased, or brainwashed? You must get beyond this if genocide denial is to hold water. That would be like me having taken the word of Armenians that such and such happened. You asked how you can tell who here is unbiased. Well, I'm about as unbaised as it gets from EITHER side, Turkish OR Armenian, because I don't have the typical attachment to the Diaspora or Turkish culture that most people debating this issue have. Hell, I've never spoken the language with anyone outside of my immediate family. You see, where I live, no one's ever even HEARD of Armenians, let alone formed a community. People stare at me blankly when I tell them what my nationality is. I've had nothing to instill hatred in me towards Turks, or "super dooper pride" in being Armenian. My ethnicity was just sort of there. I was unaware of the details around this event (my parents merely made brief mentions of it, but never got into/knew of the details). So I took it upon myself to research this subject (starting from scratch), and see just what it was all about. The fruits of my labor of endless reading brought me to my conclusion, and I've offered much of that through the various threads that have been started over the last week or so, here.

I took a lot of time to address your "you don't know what happened pre-WWI" claims. Well #1: Just because we don't agree with your perception of it, doesn't mean we “don't know what happened”, and #2: I took a great deal of time creating a response to what happened pre WWI, and you chose to overlook it/ignore it, as you've done with a great many points I've brought up in my posts. Quite frankly, your constant ignoring/overlooking grows tiresome, as does your generic response of "you don't know what happened pre-WWI" (even though it was addressed), and "Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened". You've gotta' have more ammo then just that which the Turkish side provides, and quotes that have grossly been taken out of context.

[thinktwice]

If you don't want to laugh anymore, I suggest you don't read back over your own writings. "Am I going to believe you, or Ottoman archives"???? Are you freaking KIDDING me? Do I really have to state the obvoius as to why this is a ridiculous line of reasoning??? I certainly hope not. Further more, here we are, at nearly a century of denial, and your government just now opens up their archives?? That doesn't seem the slightest bit odd to you? Would you judge the character of a person from the way his house appears after he/she has had ample warning and time to clean it up? Please, thinktwice, I'm trying to be as civil as possible about this subject, but for the love of god, analyze what you're saying. Perhaps there are some valid things in those archives, and I'm not asking you to dismiss it all together, but to blindly say I'd take their word over yours.....that's just not a very intelligent way to view a, as you admitted countless times, heavily politically laden matter, especially in the political house of the accused party.

As far as understanding what happened pre-WWI, I addressed that head on in my last post, which, again, you conveniently overlooked/ignored. We cannot have a discussion if you're going to continually pick and choose what you want to argue. And enough with the ridiculous "parrot" remarks. Don't forget, the Turkish do the same. Since you guys seem to enjoy "surveys" and "examples of conversations" so much, here's how you guys have come off sounding so far (and I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, I'm simply stating how it appears):

Armenian: What about the numbers your various historians give not matching up with the stories they provide?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: What about the fact that there are many many Turkish & Turkish ally witnesses that disagree with that?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: What about all the Armenians in the Turkish army who unfortunately had to fight/kill fellow Armenians in the Russian army due to their loyalty to the Ottoman Empire?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: But....how did such a small, insignificant amount of Armenian rebels (since you admitted "the mighty Ottoman Empire wasn't afraid of Armenians", which in itself, blows away the exiled for treachery theory you cling to) kill so many Turks? Don't you think you're possibly including the number the Russians killed into one lump sum figure?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: Why has it taken nearly 9 decades for Turkey to open the Ottoman archives?
Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.
Armenian: So what exactly is your story?

1. There couldn't have been 1.5 million Armenians killed, because there were only 1.2+/- million or so to begin with.
2. The Armenians did the slaughtering of 500,000+ Turks, even though the entire Armenian population consisted of 1 million or less.
3. There may have been 1.5 million killed, but it was due to them turning on us, initiating warfare between us (because all 1.5 million citizens were part of that war).
4. It is unfortunate that so many Armenians died, but we had nothing to do with it/was out of our control: It was the Kurds and the criminals we let loose who did the killing while we were peacefully migrating the Armenians for their own protection.
5. The Ottoman Empire is not responsible for the 1.5 million Armenians killed because Talat was not acting out on OUR orders! He was a radical/dissenter the OE couldn't control, and initiated his own agenda against our will.

Etc (some of the MANY, MANY reasons for denial I've come across).....

Turk: Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened.

That's not a parrot. That's a broken record! Let's try and skip past the scratch/imperfection it's stuck on, shall we?

Your particular (not Turks as a whole, as I've shown/listed) line of defense which you keep reverting to boils down to "Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened. Why do I choose this story? Because OUR archives and OUR historians SAY so"! You don’t find that the least bit silly/biased, or brainwashed? You must get beyond this if genocide denial is to hold water. That would be like me having taken the word of Armenians that such and such happened. You asked how you can tell who here is unbiased. Well, I'm about as unbaised as it gets from EITHER side, Turkish OR Armenian, because I don't have the typical attachment to the Diaspora or Turkish culture that most people debating this issue have. Hell, I've never spoken the language with anyone outside of my immediate family. You see, where I live, no one's ever even HEARD of Armenians, let alone formed a community. People stare at me blankly when I tell them what my nationality is. I've had nothing to instill hatred in me towards Turks, or "super dooper pride" in being Armenian. My ethnicity was just sort of there. I was unaware of the details around this event (my parents merely made brief mentions of it, but never got into/knew of the details). So I took it upon myself to research this subject (starting from scratch), and see just what it was all about. The fruits of my labor of endless reading brought me to my conclusion, and I've offered much of that through the various threads that have been started over the last week or so, here.

I took a lot of time to address your "you don't know what happened pre-WWI" claims. Well #1: Just because we don't agree with your perception of it, doesn't mean we “don't know what happened”, and #2: I took a great deal of time creating a response to what happened pre WWI, and you chose to overlook it/ignore it, as you've done with a great many points I've brought up in my posts. Quite frankly, your constant ignoring/overlooking grows tiresome, as does your generic response of "you don't know what happened pre-WWI" (even though it was addressed), and "Armenians committed treachery, and deserved what happened". You've gotta' have more ammo then just that which the Turkish side provides, and quotes that have grossly been taken out of context.

I'm showing you what happened before WWI from all archives around the world. It is you ignorant one. Ask yourself how can one ordinary people can know your history better than you? You telling me that i know false history adn you know the true one? hey wtf...

And one other thing:

Armenian: You killed our ancestors. We knew that but we didn't realize that till 1960s.
Turk: OK come here i have archives, real arabic papers and document here.

Armenian: Nooo you are Turk i can't accept that.
Turk: OK then show me yours.

Armenian: I don't know where are they. Btw we can look reliable archives of English, French, Russian and German.
Turk: OK then show me their archives about genocide.

Armenian: Ohh take a look i find one ambassasor's and Talat's papers.
Turk: Is it all of their archive?

Armenian: Ummm i don't think so. OK give me some more time you'll see i'll find more.
Turk: ...


This is what exactly happening right?

[Anonymouse]

Armenian: You committed genocide
Turk: Well, no, technically speaking, we didn't. It's just part of being a Turk.

[thinktwice]

Armenian: You committed genocide
Turk: Well, no, technically speaking, we didn't. It's just part of being a Turk.

NoThink Armenian come up with real and enough proof...
I don't need your empty words...

[Crimson Glow]

I didn't read whole thing just tell me one thing. This is what exactly happening right?

No....no that only happens when Turks don't want to discuss this subject with those that are well read up on it. Just as most Turks don't even know off the Ottoman archives, what the history is (for EITHER side), or even that there's a genocide claim to BEGIN with, certainly there are many Armenians that I'm sure aren't well versed on the subject from their own side, either. That is why I tried to show you your hypocrisy through that example. You've proven that you don't want to read real rebuttles. You just want to hand pick a few sections that you THINK you can deal with/arguee against. You've exhausted my patience with your as equally "brainwashed propoganda stories", and repetative retorts as those your criticize. I'll leave you with one last, indisputable truth:

Even your own Turkish government (the one immediately proceeding the Young Turks) admitted to a systematic, well covered genocide. Your own Turkish government, through trials of war crimes conducted by the Turkish Court, sentenced Ismail Enver Pasha, Ahmed Cemal Pasha and Mehmed Talāt Bey to death for "the extermination and destruction of the Armenians." OOPS!! Interesting how after a few decades of silence, this point miraculously gets overlooked, and denial becomes policy. Maybe your own government was busy at that time trying to create political propoganda against.....itself?

[thinktwice]

No....no that only happens when Turks don't want to discuss this subject with those that are well read up on it. Just as most Turks don't even know off the Ottoman archives, what the history is (for EITHER side), or even that there's a genocide claim to BEGIN with, certainly there are many Armenians that I'm sure aren't well versed on the subject from their own side, either. That is why I tried to show you your hypocrisy through that example. You've proven that you don't want to read real rebuttles. You just want to hand pick a few sections that you THINK you can deal with/arguee against. You've exhausted my patience with your as equally "brainwashed propoganda stories", and repetative retorts as those your criticize. I'll leave you with one last, indisputable truth:

Even your own Turkish government (the one immediately proceeding the Young Turks) admitted to a systematic, well covered genocide. Your own Turkish government, through trials of war crimes conducted by the Turkish Court, sentenced Ismail Enver Pasha, Ahmed Cemal Pasha and Mehmed Talāt Bey to death for "the extermination and destruction of the Armenians." OOPS!! Interesting how after a few decades of silence, this point miraculously gets overlooked, and denial becomes policy. Maybe your own government was busy at that time trying to create political propoganda against.....itself?

Do you know who are Ismail Enver Pasha, Ahmed Cemal Pasha and Mehmet
Talāt? Are they signed "Tehcir"? Are they sultan? What happened to them? What were their purpose? Is it all to explain us what happened?

See i read your thing and then added a quote now you can go on...