Opinions of a Turk, or two (hi from Turkey)

[winoman]

Catwoman - I suggest thet you edit your post to take out a direct link to the racist Turkish site as it will cause it to be picked up by search engines.

As for our Turkthink genius here I think he is all out of ideas - Armenian were punished for treachery he says - yet German accounts show all to be quiet. Even Nogalas was appauled when he arrived at Van to find that the aggressors were clearly his employers the Turks. Oh and BTW Turknothink I posted a link to the german archives that clearly show over and over and over what was done - and the fact that there was no Armenian treachery.

Additionally I want to leave you with some quotes from some of your hereos -

Benard Lewis (Turkish apologost historian) writes - following the CUP revolution in 1908:

"The long night of Hamidean despotism was over: the dawn of freedom had come. The Constitution had once again been proclaimed and elections ordered. Turks and Armenians embraced in the streets"

On February 1915 Enver Pasha made the following public statement to the Armenian Archbishop Konya upon returning from his disastorous invasion of the Caucuses (where he was personally saved by an Ottoman Armenain regiment BTW):

"I am giving you my thanks and using this oppurtunity to tell you that the Armenian soldiers of the Ottoman Army are executing their duty in the theatre of war scupulously, as witness my own experience. I wish to communicate to the Armenian nation, known for its complete devotion to the Imperial Ottoman government, the expression of my satisfaction and gratitude"

Very intesting eh? So what do you say to that? The Armenains suddenly rebelled between February and April of 1915 causing the Turks to move against them? Is this your explanation? Well no - untrue - please read the following analysis of the situation of the Armenians in Anatolia before the War and Genocide by Robert Melson in his groudbreaking analysis in "Revolution and Genocide - on the origins of the Armenain Genocide and the Holocasut - 1992 - (he is a Jewish Holocaust survivor BTW):

"It is safe to say that before the revolution of 1908 and the genocide of 1915 Armenians were not a major threat to the integrity of the Ottoman Empire." instead "...the Turkish revolution...produced a crucial shift from Ottoman pluralism...to narrow Turkish nationalism..." and "The Armenains did not realize that, through no fault of their own, the identity of the Ottoman state and its political myth of legitimation had been drastically altered by the Young Turks, and that their self-conception as a component millet (community) of that state was no longer shared by the Pan-Turkish leadership of Turkey"

Melson explains why the Young Turks turned on the Armenians (my bold added): "The Young Turks...had become xenophobic integral nationalists for whom the identity (non-Turkish) and situation (in the heartland of "Turkish" Anatolia) of the Armenians were sufficient proof of their treachery and potential threat to the continuity of the empire" and "...the genocide of the Armenians...was...a product of the Turkish nationalist revolution and a stage in its development" He explains that "...the fear of the Armenians (did not) rise out of the actions and capabilities of the Armenians themselves....(but arose) from the Young Turk's own desperate situation and their newfound faith in Turkish nationalism" and that "Neither the Armenian population as a whole nor any of its (political) parties was a threat or even percieved as a threat in 1908 when the revolution first broke out."

Ottoman historian of this period Roderic Davidson (who wrote a History of Turkey along with several other books and articles concerning these and related issues such as "Turkish attitudes towards Christian-Muslim Equality in the 19th Century) writes:

"Even at this late date (1914), it cannot be said that there ensued a 'struggle between two nations.' For the Armenians were not struggling to destroy the Ottoman EMpire or the Turks, nor were they attempting to sucede or to join Russia." "Their program was essentially one of reform within the Ottoman Empire." "The peasant mass was not very vocal. Higher classes of Ottoman Armenians wished for rather a regenerated or orderly Turkey and thought that autonomy would be possible only within Turkey and not under Russian Domination." and "As late as 1913, when the CUP had become more authoritarian and intolerant, the whole Dashanksoutium (an Armenian political party) seems not yet to have favored seperatism but to have pursued a policy of waiting and pressure for reform and autonomy"

So nothink - this is your "treachery" - I would (accuratly) argue that the treachery was the other way around- that the Turks betrayed the loyal Armenians. I have presented entirely non-Armenian sources to back up this claim -and believe me - there are a great many more. Now shut up why don't you - your foul and entirely unsubstantiated gobble gobble words offend us - not because of any truth in them (vauge, unsupported and silly as they are) - but becuse to us - this is a real issue that hurts us - as we (Armenians) suffered terribly at the hands of the Turks and our nation and families were ruined - and for what? The same horrible blind nationalism that you reek of here an now. So begone little gobble gobble - go off and really try to use your brain and learn the truth. We will accept your humble apologies when you come back and offer such as you should.

[winoman]

You know Turkish government's stance better than me. LOL

yes we all know it well

You can forward my talking anywhere on earth. But it won't change history. If someone commit a crime against state (take side with enemy forces in war) they deserve punishment. And this punishment doesn't means genocide...

Hm - the Arabs (well some - - there was a general revolt) sided with the British against the Ottomans in WWI - this is well documented - should the Turks have wiped them out too? Would this have been justified?

And Jews of the Levant clearly fought against the ottomans and spied for the British -

And did you know that there was a Jewish corps (composed of Jews from Palestein - an Ottoman possesion at the time) commanded by the British that fought at Gallipoli? Oh yes - you should inquire about Joseph Schechtman's book " Rebal and Statesman: The Vladamir Jabotinsky story, the Early Years? Jabotinsky (who put together this Jewish legion also assembled another in Palestein as described in his own book: :The story of the Jewish Legion" and another Jews from Palestein who is quite famous for the actions of the group he led was Aaron Aaronshon. His agents passed crucial information to the British concerning Ottoman troop movements throughout the war. He was such a factor that (one of the CUP triumpverate - Djmal - whom you may or may not know was military govener of Syria during the war - actualy did propose deporting Jews to the Syrian desert without food or water!

So yes - we do see how (Young) Turks and Turkish doublethinkers like you think. Oh yes - a few revolutionaries - kill them all - woman and children as well - punish them. Well in fact this was used as justification - but was not at tlal the reason the Turks commited Genocide upon the Armenians. It was due to the Turkish nationalism and concepts of Pan-Turanism and the fact that they viewed the Armenians - who had become educated (those Christian schools you know) and thus modernized and who - with the Greeks - controlled most of the Empires commerce - they saw the Armenians as ethnic (potential) political and certainly economic rivals...thus the concept of the "National economy" (heard of that?) where Christian stores and businesse were boycotted - near continuously from about 1913 through the war - and many were also burned and destroyed (eve hear of the Adana Massacre of 1909 - that sort of thing)...etc etc - no - your explanations hold no water - thoguh are very indicative of how (certain/many etc) Turks think....

You don't even know how many people died there cause of what. You are saying same things everytime like parrot. Is your proof only "tehcir" photos for genocide? This won't take you anywhere.

We likely will never know the exact numbers who dies - I mean this was nearly 100 years ago and conditions were primative - and Armenains didn't want to be counted as they had terrible taxes to pay (and to attempt to avoid paying) - so be real - who could expect accurate censuses? What is important to realize is that there is no longer an Armenain nation/community of any size in Anatolia....and that eywitnesses saw how the Armenians were slaughtered by the Turks - over an over - everywhere throughout Anatolia. Oh - but you know this - it was their "punishment" - yes - you admit - but your attempts to explain it away are rather pathetic

US, French, England, Russia used you, they are sill using you and they will use you everytime. So sad you don't have anything to tie your people together except so-called genocide. It's enough for me to talk misguided, mindless people. you can talk to each other again...

The imperial powers promissed all indigenous peoples of Asia and the Middle East future autonmy and freedom (from the Ottoman yolk) that they had no intention of delivering on - so what is new? This has nothing to do with the fact that Turtks slaughtered Armenians because they wanted to form a minority free Turkey for the Turks and only the Turks. You have no point.

BTW - US was never at war with either Turkey (Ottoman EMpire) or with Austria and in fact (President Wilson) was very set against the Imperial ambitions of the Europeans. If only he was more competant the world - and certainly Anatolia and the Middle East would have been very different places. And he (and others) was/were correct in believing that the Turks had forfited their right to rule over the minorities and over Anatoilia proper as their legacy was one of slaughtering their own people - some benevolent government that. So - harsh as it was - and filled with Imperial machinations - for the various peoples of Anatolia - Sevres treaty was just. Turks deserved punishment and Armenains deserved a homeland free of the Turks.

[winoman]

Turknothink - you are commiting Genocide right now!

According to a commonly accepted presentation of the stages of genocide you are in the denial stage...and looky looky here...what example is given for "The most coherent and far reaching official denial today" - my my...(note this is not at all even from an Armenian site of any kind...)

There are the stages through which the causes and conditions for genocide develop and gradually end in manifest genocide, as developed by Gregory H. Stanton.

1. Classification: People are typed, categorized, and classified into different groups, such as whites, blacks, Asians; or into Christians and Jews; or into communists, leftists, or rightists.

2. Symbolization: Different groups are given names, such as Chinese, Jews, Hindus, or Marxists." Particular clothes, (like a Turban), food eaten (like rice), physical characteristic (like long noses), or behavior (like inscrutable) may become ways of stereotyping the group's members. Classification and symbolization are common to all societies and while necessary for genocide to occur, do not foretell that it will; or that the next stages will follow.

3. Dehumanization: Members of the out-groups are dehumanized, as in calling them apes, monkeys, xxxxroaches, parasites, rats, vermin, and the like. In this way, members of the out-group are made to appear clearly outside of "our" moral universe. As vermin and such, members of the out-group have been stripped of the moral in-group protection against extermination.

4. Organization: Officials, sympathetic in-group leaders, and intellectuals organize to repress, murder out-group members, or entirely destroy the dehumanized group. Weapons are stacked or handed out; militia, security forces, or military are selected and trained; preliminary plans are made.

5. Polarization: Officials, extremists, propagandists, or demagogues undertake a systematic campaign to maximize the social, psychological, and moral distance between "us" and "them." In this stage, moderate intellectuals and leaders are silenced either through intimidation, beatings, arrests, and outright assassination.

6. Preparation: All is ready for genocide and the final step is to tag those to be killed. They may be forced to wear identifying clothing, symbols on their clothing, or be segregated in ghettos. Lists of those to be killed may be prepared for killing squads, and the out-group may be systematically deprived by law and weapon roundups of any weapons. Those who might lead the resistance to genocide, such as young males, may be conscripted into the military and segregated for subsequent execution, or simply jailed.

7. Genocide: For whatever motive, the final decision is made to attack and destroy those in the out-group, or to destroy the group as such. It may be justified as a righteous campaign to exterminate vermin or cleanse the society of filth, to recover ancient greatness or save the nation's race, to revenge past wrongs, and so on.

8 Denial. The final stage is the perpetrator's denial of their genocide. They destroy or hide the relevant official evidence, burn bodies, leave unmarked graves, or invent a reasonable rational for the killing ("they were in rebellion," "were killed during the civil war," or "were helpmates to our enemies."). Moreover, the perpetrators may harass those who claim that a genocide occurred. The most coherent and far reaching official denial today is that of the Turkish government that the murder of over a million Armenians during World War I was genocide. According to the Turks, they died as a result of a civil war, an invasion by Russia, and the attempt of the Young Turk government to deport potential and actual hostile Armenians to a different part of the country for their own protection.

[TomServo]

Rise and shine, thinktwice! You're still unwanted here. Actually, your barbarian ancestors were unwanted thousands of years ago, but that didn't stop them. Guess it runs in the family.

[thinktwice]

Other side of the medallion...

I guess when you diaspora people heard Turk word in any means your blood starting to boil. One of my parent told me that "armenian people in europe and armenia know what happened but us armenians are just like americans ingenuous people with twisted minds." And i believe diaspora is the cancer for mankind today.

Do you care for your people in Turkiye? Yes but...
Do you care for your people in Armenia? Yes but...

Yea i know you care for them and diaspora cares armenians right? No diaspora is nothing for you for me and for anybody. But it's not your fault only imperial forces use you all the time. So thinktwice...

Here we go other side of medallion. Bloodthirsty armenians...


"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."

Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91.

"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."

A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. Quoted from Richard Hovannisian, Armenia on the Road to Independence, Berkeley, 1967, p. 41-42.

"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."

Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)

"In history it happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia 2.5 million Muslims were killed by the Armenians in the worst possible way imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened. The Armenian General Dro, the butcher was the architect of this Armenian genocide of Muslims, 1914-1920."

Arto Derounian (as 'John Roy Carlson'), Armenian Affairs magazine Winter issue, 1949-50, page 19, footnote. (Derounian's first name was "Avedis," and "Arthur" is the name he usually used; the author's "Under Cover" was a best seller in 1944.)

"...When Turkey had not yet entered the war...Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks..."

Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923. (The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.)


" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"

Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.


"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself."

Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination."

Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.

"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"

Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.


"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."

Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38

"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."

Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.


"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives."

F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tartar" Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan,turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse]. According to Justin McCarthy's "Death and Exile"

"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."

Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities.

"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."

Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the
Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by
the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

G. Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921

"...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..."

Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301

"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."

Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87).

[TomServo]

Is that all you've got?

[thinktwice]

Is that all you've got?

Yea some of my archive and your reply?

[TomServo]

There's the Turk!

[thinktwice]

There's the Turk!

Now i can see your face diaspora people...

[winoman]

I answered these baseless, out of context and exaggerated charges in another thread.

NothinkTurk - you hatred and desperation are showing.