Catwoman - I suggest thet you edit your post to take out a direct link to the racist Turkish site as it will cause it to be picked up by search engines.
As for our Turkthink genius here I think he is all out of ideas - Armenian were punished for treachery he says - yet German accounts show all to be quiet. Even Nogalas was appauled when he arrived at Van to find that the aggressors were clearly his employers the Turks. Oh and BTW Turknothink I posted a link to the german archives that clearly show over and over and over what was done - and the fact that there was no Armenian treachery.
Additionally I want to leave you with some quotes from some of your hereos -
Benard Lewis (Turkish apologost historian) writes - following the CUP revolution in 1908:
"The long night of Hamidean despotism was over: the dawn of freedom had come. The Constitution had once again been proclaimed and elections ordered. Turks and Armenians embraced in the streets"
On February 1915 Enver Pasha made the following public statement to the Armenian Archbishop Konya upon returning from his disastorous invasion of the Caucuses (where he was personally saved by an Ottoman Armenain regiment BTW):
"I am giving you my thanks and using this oppurtunity to tell you that the Armenian soldiers of the Ottoman Army are executing their duty in the theatre of war scupulously, as witness my own experience. I wish to communicate to the Armenian nation, known for its complete devotion to the Imperial Ottoman government, the expression of my satisfaction and gratitude"
Very intesting eh? So what do you say to that? The Armenains suddenly rebelled between February and April of 1915 causing the Turks to move against them? Is this your explanation? Well no - untrue - please read the following analysis of the situation of the Armenians in Anatolia before the War and Genocide by Robert Melson in his groudbreaking analysis in "Revolution and Genocide - on the origins of the Armenain Genocide and the Holocasut - 1992 - (he is a Jewish Holocaust survivor BTW):
"It is safe to say that before the revolution of 1908 and the genocide of 1915 Armenians were not a major threat to the integrity of the Ottoman Empire." instead "...the Turkish revolution...produced a crucial shift from Ottoman pluralism...to narrow Turkish nationalism..." and "The Armenains did not realize that, through no fault of their own, the identity of the Ottoman state and its political myth of legitimation had been drastically altered by the Young Turks, and that their self-conception as a component millet (community) of that state was no longer shared by the Pan-Turkish leadership of Turkey"
Melson explains why the Young Turks turned on the Armenians (my bold added): "The Young Turks...had become xenophobic integral nationalists for whom the identity (non-Turkish) and situation (in the heartland of "Turkish" Anatolia) of the Armenians were sufficient proof of their treachery and potential threat to the continuity of the empire" and "...the genocide of the Armenians...was...a product of the Turkish nationalist revolution and a stage in its development" He explains that "...the fear of the Armenians (did not) rise out of the actions and capabilities of the Armenians themselves....(but arose) from the Young Turk's own desperate situation and their newfound faith in Turkish nationalism" and that "Neither the Armenian population as a whole nor any of its (political) parties was a threat or even percieved as a threat in 1908 when the revolution first broke out."
Ottoman historian of this period Roderic Davidson (who wrote a History of Turkey along with several other books and articles concerning these and related issues such as "Turkish attitudes towards Christian-Muslim Equality in the 19th Century) writes:
"Even at this late date (1914), it cannot be said that there ensued a 'struggle between two nations.' For the Armenians were not struggling to destroy the Ottoman EMpire or the Turks, nor were they attempting to sucede or to join Russia." "Their program was essentially one of reform within the Ottoman Empire." "The peasant mass was not very vocal. Higher classes of Ottoman Armenians wished for rather a regenerated or orderly Turkey and thought that autonomy would be possible only within Turkey and not under Russian Domination." and "As late as 1913, when the CUP had become more authoritarian and intolerant, the whole Dashanksoutium (an Armenian political party) seems not yet to have favored seperatism but to have pursued a policy of waiting and pressure for reform and autonomy"
So nothink - this is your "treachery" - I would (accuratly) argue that the treachery was the other way around- that the Turks betrayed the loyal Armenians. I have presented entirely non-Armenian sources to back up this claim -and believe me - there are a great many more. Now shut up why don't you - your foul and entirely unsubstantiated gobble gobble words offend us - not because of any truth in them (vauge, unsupported and silly as they are) - but becuse to us - this is a real issue that hurts us - as we (Armenians) suffered terribly at the hands of the Turks and our nation and families were ruined - and for what? The same horrible blind nationalism that you reek of here an now. So begone little gobble gobble - go off and really try to use your brain and learn the truth. We will accept your humble apologies when you come back and offer such as you should.
As for our Turkthink genius here I think he is all out of ideas - Armenian were punished for treachery he says - yet German accounts show all to be quiet. Even Nogalas was appauled when he arrived at Van to find that the aggressors were clearly his employers the Turks. Oh and BTW Turknothink I posted a link to the german archives that clearly show over and over and over what was done - and the fact that there was no Armenian treachery.
Additionally I want to leave you with some quotes from some of your hereos -
Benard Lewis (Turkish apologost historian) writes - following the CUP revolution in 1908:
"The long night of Hamidean despotism was over: the dawn of freedom had come. The Constitution had once again been proclaimed and elections ordered. Turks and Armenians embraced in the streets"
On February 1915 Enver Pasha made the following public statement to the Armenian Archbishop Konya upon returning from his disastorous invasion of the Caucuses (where he was personally saved by an Ottoman Armenain regiment BTW):
"I am giving you my thanks and using this oppurtunity to tell you that the Armenian soldiers of the Ottoman Army are executing their duty in the theatre of war scupulously, as witness my own experience. I wish to communicate to the Armenian nation, known for its complete devotion to the Imperial Ottoman government, the expression of my satisfaction and gratitude"
Very intesting eh? So what do you say to that? The Armenains suddenly rebelled between February and April of 1915 causing the Turks to move against them? Is this your explanation? Well no - untrue - please read the following analysis of the situation of the Armenians in Anatolia before the War and Genocide by Robert Melson in his groudbreaking analysis in "Revolution and Genocide - on the origins of the Armenain Genocide and the Holocasut - 1992 - (he is a Jewish Holocaust survivor BTW):
"It is safe to say that before the revolution of 1908 and the genocide of 1915 Armenians were not a major threat to the integrity of the Ottoman Empire." instead "...the Turkish revolution...produced a crucial shift from Ottoman pluralism...to narrow Turkish nationalism..." and "The Armenains did not realize that, through no fault of their own, the identity of the Ottoman state and its political myth of legitimation had been drastically altered by the Young Turks, and that their self-conception as a component millet (community) of that state was no longer shared by the Pan-Turkish leadership of Turkey"
Melson explains why the Young Turks turned on the Armenians (my bold added): "The Young Turks...had become xenophobic integral nationalists for whom the identity (non-Turkish) and situation (in the heartland of "Turkish" Anatolia) of the Armenians were sufficient proof of their treachery and potential threat to the continuity of the empire" and "...the genocide of the Armenians...was...a product of the Turkish nationalist revolution and a stage in its development" He explains that "...the fear of the Armenians (did not) rise out of the actions and capabilities of the Armenians themselves....(but arose) from the Young Turk's own desperate situation and their newfound faith in Turkish nationalism" and that "Neither the Armenian population as a whole nor any of its (political) parties was a threat or even percieved as a threat in 1908 when the revolution first broke out."
Ottoman historian of this period Roderic Davidson (who wrote a History of Turkey along with several other books and articles concerning these and related issues such as "Turkish attitudes towards Christian-Muslim Equality in the 19th Century) writes:
"Even at this late date (1914), it cannot be said that there ensued a 'struggle between two nations.' For the Armenians were not struggling to destroy the Ottoman EMpire or the Turks, nor were they attempting to sucede or to join Russia." "Their program was essentially one of reform within the Ottoman Empire." "The peasant mass was not very vocal. Higher classes of Ottoman Armenians wished for rather a regenerated or orderly Turkey and thought that autonomy would be possible only within Turkey and not under Russian Domination." and "As late as 1913, when the CUP had become more authoritarian and intolerant, the whole Dashanksoutium (an Armenian political party) seems not yet to have favored seperatism but to have pursued a policy of waiting and pressure for reform and autonomy"
So nothink - this is your "treachery" - I would (accuratly) argue that the treachery was the other way around- that the Turks betrayed the loyal Armenians. I have presented entirely non-Armenian sources to back up this claim -and believe me - there are a great many more. Now shut up why don't you - your foul and entirely unsubstantiated gobble gobble words offend us - not because of any truth in them (vauge, unsupported and silly as they are) - but becuse to us - this is a real issue that hurts us - as we (Armenians) suffered terribly at the hands of the Turks and our nation and families were ruined - and for what? The same horrible blind nationalism that you reek of here an now. So begone little gobble gobble - go off and really try to use your brain and learn the truth. We will accept your humble apologies when you come back and offer such as you should.
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