Opinions of a Turk, or two (hi from Turkey)

[RookieArcher]

Crimson Glow, you think you are more intelligent than most of Turks, dont you?

any intelligent man can understand why cemil started his long post like he did. Because, anything except the "recognition of -your version of story-" is out of discussion for you.

You 'the only intelligent man', for the sake of not repeating same discussion over and over again, come over here http://forum.armenianclub.com/showth...4&page=1&pp=15 we are having a diccussion there.

Yes we dont have a consistent line of story, you are right. Because we didnt set up our national existence on a fable, on hatred, we didnt worked on it to tune-fine our side of story as you did for last 80 years.

[apaydin2148]

hi from Turkey 2

AN ANSWER TO THE ARMENIAN ALLEGATION OF GENOCIDE

During the 1st World War while the Ottoman Army was fighting against the Russians in the Eastern Anatolia, it was loosing blood due to the attacks of Armenian guerillas inside, behind the fronts. The Russian Tsar, who desired to conquer the Eastern Anatolia to gain a corridor towards Mediterranean, had provided all kinds of support Armenian rebellions. The Armenian guerillas attacked the Turkish and Kurdish Muslims, killed them and forced them to leave their homelands. During these attacks about 600 thousand Muslims died while escaping from Armenian rebellions.

All warnings of the Ottoman Administration to Armenians to quit the rebellion were fruitless and at April 24, 1915 Ottoman Administrators started to close Armenian Associations and arrested their leaders. Even these measures could not able to settle down the rebellions, the Empire set a new law to move the Eastern Armenians to Iraq, Syria and Lebanon which were within the territories of the Ottoman Empire.

Armenian Government and Diaspora claim that 1.5 million of Armenians were under Genocide. Whereas according to the census at the beginning of 1914, the total Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire was 1.260.000 all over the country including the Western Anatolia and Istanbul.

During the migration, it is the fact that thousands of Armenians had lost their lives because of difficulties of transportation, starvation and illness; just as the Muslims who had to leave their homes to escape from the Armenian massacre. But there was no Genocide. The Turkish Republic has opened the Ottoman Archives for the researches to present the realities in the global arena. We expect Armenia, England, France, Russia and USA to open their own archives to the world too.

The 82 years old young Turkish Republic was founded on the grounds of these treaties below:

December 2/3,1920 Gümrü Treaty with Armenia,

March 16, 1921 Moscow Treaty with Soviet Union,

October 13, 1921 Kars Treaty with Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan.

October 20, 1921 Ankara Treaty with France,

July 24, 1923 Lausanne Treaty with all the interested countries ( including England, France, Italy, Japan, Greece and Bulgaria)

There were no Genocide allegations in these Treaties. From the perspective of Turkish Republic, these allegations are evaluated as a shameful claim in order to agitate prestige of her and to pluck political concessions from Turkey.

The Statements existing in the Constitution of Armenia, Turkey’s eastern neighbor, threatening the territorial integrity Turkish Republic; fostering Turkish Enmity in schools, ,in churches and in diplomacy through provocations; the fact that the neighbor Azerbaijani lands are under Armenian occupation since the last 12 years; the fact that more than one million Azeri citizens struggle to live in status of refugee who had to escape from the Armenian occupation have a negative impact on Regional and Global peace and stability. These international problems have to be resolved instead of relying on Armenian slanders.

Reported to the USA Congress and the EU Parliament with Respect.

[apaydin2148]

all of them fixed by archives

[cemil]

In Lausanne Treaty discussions ,at first Britain and allies wanted the Greeks and Armenians return to Anatolia, Turkish delegation rejected the return of Anatolian Greeks and Armenians , only for, DEMANDING CONDITIONS SAME FOR BOTH CHRISTIAN MINORITIES OF TURKEY, AND MUSLIM MINORITIES OF NEIGHBOURS STATES.

So we insisted them not to return, and its dealed,justice provided on the case, in the name of equality of states inside international law.

Everything is solved with those treaties you mentioned above,solved inside principle of ''equality of States''.

[thinktwice]

We have poll with diaspora. Check it out:

Question: Are you trying to judge Young Turks (İttihat ve Terakki), Ottoman Empire, Turkish Republic, Turks... It's a bit confusing isn't it?

Answer (Diaspora): Uh oh we don't know...


Question: Can you judge Turkish Republic with your genocide term?

Answer (Let me answer): No you cannot judge us. Because we have Kars Treaty (1921). If you don't know, all actions between nations concluded with this pact... So you see you cannot even go UN, International Courts.


Question: So what do you want from Turkey?
Question for smartasses: Or should i ask What are your supporter politics want from Turkey?

Answer (Diaspora person 1): ban...
Answer (Diaspora person 2): long live genocide...
Answer (Diaspora person 3): I didn't understand what are you telling me...
Answer (Diaspora person 4): Look we have Turks here... Run away for your lives....


I'm flushing your so-called genocide... Have a nice day...

[winoman]

- List of Turkish-paid "Historians" -
-------------------------------------------------

The following is an expose' of those 69 American "academicians" or "scholars"
or "professors" . As for their fair and non-bias opinion, let the record
speak for itself:

ITS, stands for the Turkish Studies Institute, in Washington D.C., honorary
chairman, the Turkish Ambassador to the U.S.. The Institute's purpose is to
counter Armenian activity at the "academic level" and as a pro-Turkey lobbying
group.

ARIT, stands for the American Research Institute in Turkey.

The number in ( ) stands for the number of monetary grants by either ITS, or
ARIT to the "scholar", and the items between [ ] indicate the total number
of grants to the rest of the College or University the "scholars" are
affiliated with.


SCHOLAR AFFILIATION DIRECT CONNECTION W/TURKEY
(or area of scholarship)
----------------------------+------------------+---------------------------

Abu El Haj, Rifaat Cal. St. Univ, Long Beach ITS(1)
Atis, Sara Univ. of Wisc @ Madison ITS(1), [ITS(8)]
Barbir, Karl K. Siena Coll. (NY) Arab-Ottoman Studies
Basgoz,Ilhan Indiana Univ. ITS(3), ARIT(2),
[ITS(8)]
Bates, Daniel Hunter Coll., Univ of NY [ITS(1)]
Bates, Ulku Hunter Coll., Univ of NY ARIT(1), [ITS(1)]
Bayerle, Gustav Indiana Univ. ARIT(1), [ITS(8)]
Bodrogligetti, Andras UCLA ITS(1), [ITS(4)]
Burrill, Kathleen Columbia University ITS(8), ARIT(1),
[ITS(9)]
Childs, Timothy SAIS, John Hopkins Univ. 19th-20th century
Ottoman history
Daulet, Shafiga Univ. of Conn. [ITS(4)]
Davison, Roderic Geo. Wash. Univ. ARIT(1)
Denny, Walter Univ. of Mass. ARIT(1)
Duben, Alan Anthropoliogist
Ervin, Ellen N.Y. Univ. ITS(1), [ITS(6)]
Farah, Caesar Univ. of Minn. ITS(1)
Findley, Carter Ohio State. Univ. ITS(2), ARIT(1),
[ITS(3)]
Finefrock, Michael Coll. of Charleston 20th century Turkish
history
Fisher, Alan Mich. State Univ. ARIT(1), [ITS(1)]
Fleischer, Cornell Wash. Univ, Misssouri 16th-17th century
Ottoman history
Golden, Peter Rutgers Univ.
Goodrich, Tom Indiana Univ of Penn. 16th century Ottoman
history
Gould, Andres Historian
Griswald, Willaim Colo. State Univ. ARIT(1)
Halasi-Kun, Tibor Columbia Univ. ITS(3), [ITS(10)]
Hickman, William UCAL, Berkeley ARIT(1), [ITS(3)]
Hurewitz, J.C. Columbia Univ (ret) ITS(10)
Hymes, John Glenville State Col., W. Va. 19th-20th Century
Ottoman history
Inalcik, Halil Univ. of Chicago ITS(1), [ARIT(9)]
Jaeckel, Ralph UCLA [ITS(4)]
Jennings, Ronald Univ. of Illinois ARIT(1), [ITS(3)]
Kelly, James Univ. of Utah ITS(2), ARIT(1),
[ITS(5)]
Key, Kerim Southeastern Univ. 19th-20th Century
Ottoman history
Kunt, Metin Ottoman history
Latimer, Frederick Univ. of Utah (ret.) Ottoman history
Levy, Avigdor Brandies Univ. ARIT(1), [ITS(7)]
Lewis, Bernard Princeton Univ. [ITS(3)]
Lowry, Heath Inst. of Turkish Studies ARIT(2)
McCarthy, Justin Univ of Lowisville ITS(1), ARIT(1)
Mandaville, Jon Portland State Univ. ARIT(1), [ITS(2)]
Meeker, Michael UCAL San Diego Turkish studies
Murphy, Rhodes Columbia Univ. ITS(1), ARIT(1),
[[ITS(10)]
Naff, Thomas Univ. of Penn. [ITS(9)]
Oberling, Pierre Hunter Coll., Univ of NY ITS(1), [ITS(1)]
Ochsenwald, William Va. Polytech Inst. ARIT(1)
Olson, Robert Univ. of Kentucky 18th-20th century
Turkish history
Peachy, William Ohio State University ARIT(2)
Quataert, Sonald Univ of Huston ITS(2), ARIT(1),
[ITS(2)]
Reed, Howard Univ. of Conn. ITS(1), [ITS(5)]
Rustow, Dankart City Univ of NY ITS(1)
Shaw, Ezel Kural Cal. State Univ, Nothridge 19th century Ottoman
history
Shaw, Stanford UCLA ITS(1), ARIT(2),
[ITS(4)]
Smith, Elaine Foreign Service (ret.) Modern Turkey
Smith, Grace UCAL, Berkeley ITS(1), ARIT(1),
[ITS(3)]
Smith, John Masson UCAL, Berkeley ARIT(1), [ITS(3)]
Soucek, Svat ARIT(1)
Staab, Robert Univ. of Utah [ITS(5)]
Starr, June SUNY Stoneybrook Anthropologist
Stewart-Robinson, James Univ. of Mich. [ITS(3)]
Stoddard, Phllip Middle East Institute, (Dir.) ITS(3)
Tachau, Frank Univ. of Illinois ITS(1), ARIT(2),
[ITS(3)]
Tamkoc, Metin Texas Tech [ITS(1)]
Thomas, David RI College ARIT(2)
Yenzke, M.L. xxxxinson College ARIT(1)
Walker, Warren Texas Tech [ITS(1)]
Webster, Walter Rutgers Univ. 1930's Turkish History
Woods, John Univ. of Chicago [ITS(9)]
Zilfi, Madeline Univ of Maryland ARIT(2)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sources for the above chart: Middle East Studies
Association Bulletins, Directory of American Scholars,
and the Ottoman Studies Directory.


Next, let us examine the background of these 69 - "the majority of American
academic experts on the late Ottoman history".

All of the signatories of the ad have at some time studied, taught or written
about some aspects of Turkey -- history, anthropology, linguistics, literature,
political science, or folklore.

But an analysis of their areas of expertise reveals a striking fact:
of the 69 signatories, only 8 are concerned solely with the 20th Century, the
period encompassing the Armenian genocide. Another 10 are scholars of the 19th
and 20th Century. Put together, only 26% of the signatories are scholars on
the broad subject of pre-republican Turkish history during the 19th and 20th
Centuries.

Closer analysis reveals that only 4 of the 18 scholars of the 19th and 20th
Century history have dealt with the specific topic and period of history in
question, i.e. Turkish Ottoman policy towards the Armenians during and before
WW1. These four are Philip Stoddard, Justin McCarthy, Ezel Kural Shaw and her
husband, Stanford Shaw.

Of the remaining 14 scholars of the 190th and 20th Century Turkish history,
nine have dealt with the issues peripheral to the Armenian theme, and five
with topics irrelevant to Armenian issues. One example is Heath Lowry, the
current director of the Institute of Turkish Studies in Washington, D.C.
(run by the Turkish government). His area of expertise is the 16th Century
Ottoman Empire.

A significant number of the "scholars" have received fellowships and/or grants
from pro-Turkish organizations to conduct their research. In all, 40 of the
"scholars" who signed the ad received a total of 65 grants from these two
organizations. In addition, departments or universities with which those 40
scholars are affiliated have received more than 170 grants from pro-Turkish
institutions.

After the publication of the "ad", the signatories were written to determine
their personal views on the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. Eleven of them
responded and made the following points:


* All 11 signatories agreed that archives everywhere, especially in Turkey,
should be opened to all scholars.

* Some objected to the U.S. Congress singling out the Armenians as an example
of man's inhumanity to man, while ignoring the plight of the Blacks and
Indians.

* One raised the concern of a damaged NATO alliance and possible disruption
in the U.S.-Turkish relations.

* One expressed displeasure that the ad had been reprinted without his
permission.

* One decried blaming today's Turkey for "what happened 70 years ago,"
but another noted that the Turkish public has not addressed the
"victimization of the Armenians."

- - - End: List of Liars - - -

[TomServo]

It's like you Turks are getting more and more desperate as more countries accept the genocide and as the date when your big boys have to confront the issue approaches. No EU4U!

[thinktwice]

Oh yeah... and you begin to worry about your diaspora and baseless so-called genocide with all pressure on you right. Poor you

[TomServo]

Pressure? This is pressure? This is fun. I actually look forward to visiting this forum every day, because I know that nothing is getting done and I can just stick to insulting you people. There are other, more constructive ways that I deal with the issue. But you little Turks can just keep coming here. I've even found a name for this little debate we've been having.

[winoman]

"no there was no Genocide - we were only moving Armenians to safe pastoral areas outside the war zone - for their protection"

"There were never very many Armenians in Anatolia to begin with - and BTW - those bloodthirsty Armenians - all 153 of them - managed to kill 8 million Turks! Look how they depopulated our nation of Turks - there are practically no Turks left in Turkey today- wahhh?"

etc