Harbord Report - American Military Mission to Armenia

[winoman]

Here is a link to our archives

(I'm a US citizen so perhaps this is what you wee looking for)...

http://www.archives.gov/research_room/federal_records_guide/print_friendly.html?page=foreign_service_posts_of_department_of_state_rg084_content.html&title=NARA%20%7C%20Research%20Room%20%7C%20Guide%20to%20Records%20of%20the%20Foreign%20Service%20Posts%20of%20the%20Department%20of%20State#84.3

[RookieArcher]

Why don't you ask the Wizard of OZ if he has found a brain for you yet?

We are in the waiting list. the Wizard of OZ told us, you are the first in line, so we have to wait.

[RookieArcher]

And then the Armenians for no reason what so ever decided to revolt/rebel.

Greek/Serbian/Bulgarian independence examples made them to revolt and get independence in the same way: western interference.


U clever guy, like in your sentence above, make same reasoning:

1.And then the Armenians for no reason what so ever decided to revolt/rebel.
2. And then the Turks for no reason what so ever decided to kill Armenians after 500-600 years.

you are just intelligent looking dumbs...

[winoman]

Rookiedenier - my statement? Read it closely - I never said such a thing - there was no Armenian revolt - it is your false contention. The Germans who were there in the east emphatically stated that all was quiet - and that if not instigated y the Turks there would have been no violence in the region. I have posted these accounts numerous times. Obviously you cannot read (or reason)

[RookieArcher]

winogay,

eventhough your sick-mind irritates me, i admit you know lots of things. i have recpect for you, for you have spared your time to study this subject throughly.

i would like to thank for the link http://www.ermeni.org/english/thecou...hegenocide.htm

because folkloric cultural masterpieces seldomly has lies in them. I take all songs there to be facts. however I seperate comments aside.

All the eyewithnesses accounts and songs says: exile, deportation and the sorrow/plight/agony accompanying this exile.

Your problem is to use words of exile/deportaiton and genocide interchangebly in all stories/historical reports, then alltogether forgetting the word exile and just using genocide in comments/propaganda.

Odalar yaptırdım bir ucdan uca,
Íçinde yatmadım bir gün, bir gece,
Konma, bülbül, konma mezar taşına,
Neler geldi Emeninin başına!

Tüfeğim çadırda asılı kaldı,
Ceyizim sandıkta basılı kaldı,
Konma, bülbül, konma mezar taşına,
Neler geldi Ermeninin başına!

I had rooms built end to end,
I didn’t sleep in them a day, a night,
Don’t perch, nightingale, don’t perch on the grave stone,
The Armenians suffered so many misfortunes!


My gun remained hanging in the tent,
My dowry remained folded in the trunk,
Don’t perch, nightingale, don’t perch on the grave stone,
The Armenians suffered so many misfortunes!

Very touching,what can i say, just i feel the sorrow.

Ağaçlardan kuş uçtu,
Yandı yürek tutuştu.
Yanma, yüreğim, yanma!
Bu ayrılık bize düşdü,
Bu muhacırlık bize düşdü,
Bu Der Zorlık bize düşdü.

The birds flew away from the trees,
My heart is on fire, blazing,
Don’t burn, my heart, don’t be afire!
This separation was our fate,
This emigration was our fate,
This Derzorlık15 was our fate.

Same, touhing, like most of the songs there.

To repeat again, in all the sonngs there is one common fact: sürgün (deportation) / muhacirlik (emigration), and the accompanying sorrow, agony, injustices,sufferings, tears, death, etc. All related to the fact of deportation.

And most of the songs are referencing to Der-Zor (Syria).

However there are some excerpts from that site proves that there were "Armenian uprising" (actually i dont want to use this word, i see Armenian independence desires as an understandable tendency).

In the following Armenian-mixed Turkish song, which is widely known among the Western Armenians, the Turkish officer asks the young Armenian:

- Ulan gâvur,doğru söyle: Sende martin varımış?
- Hey! gâvur,tell the truth, Have you got a gun?

The Armenian youth denies the accusation, considering it a slander:

- Hayır, efendim! Iftiradır: Bilmem, görmedim, Bilmem, görmedim.
- No, sir, it’s a lie, I don’t know, I haven’t seen, I don’t know, I haven’t seen.

But then he adds secretly in Armenian:

It’s hanging on the wall, I won’t tell.
I won’t betray the Armenian nation.

Read the bold text.

Hakob Holobikian, from Harpoot (born in 1902), recalling how the Turkish policemen demanded arms from his father, has narrated: ...Ahmed had asked: 'Then tell me who has got arms.' My father could not be a traitor. Even if he knew, he would not tell. After one hundred and twenty blows, they had dragged him, half-dead, to the gaol. This is my father's narrative..."

I didnt have time to read all that site. It is a good site,with a diffirent approach then most of the Armenian propaganda sites. It directly quotes the folks who suffered.

1. to be able to use words "betraying the Armenian nation" when talking to a Turkish government officer, there must be an "enmity". Armenian countrymen had 2 choices at that time:

- Follow the revulitionaries, dont betray Armenians, so betray Ottomans.
- Follow goverment, betray Armenians, dont betray Ottomans.

As songs, eyewithnesse, Turkish "denialist" thesis indicates, Armenian countrymen naturally chosed the first option, "dont betray Armenians, so betray Ottomans"

Exhibiting a heroic resistance to the Turkish army, but suffering great losses, the Armenian fighters retreated to the slopes of the Andok Mountain and continued the self-defense.

And when the Russian troops retreated, a great number of Armenians, who had heroically fought in the self-defensive battles of Van, Sassoun, Shatakh, Shapin-Garahissar, Moosh, Bitlis, Alashkert, Bayazet, Babert, Erzroom and other localities, were obliged to migrate after them to Eastern Armenia. They left, in despair and in tears, their homeland, their thousand-year historical cradle and started, whimpering, on their exile journey.

Excerpts above are clear description of war, nothing else.

Trauma of your nation is created by the fact of betrayal to the 500-600 years of friendship and get nothing in exchange. A king of feeling of beeing fooled/used by Russia and other great powers at that time. You are angry, because you betrayed and got punished by deportation, but those who urged/encoureged you to betray, not only didnt keep what they had promised to you, but also they didnt pay any price for pushing you into betrayal and not keeping their words.

This is the real trauma Armenian diaspora is infected with. They betrayed, started a war against Turks, but got nothing in exchange, lost lands, loved ones. Turks are just a scapegoat here.

1. Germans killed 6 million Jews, just because they were jews. It was e genocide.

2. Germans killed 27 million Russians (Soviet nationals). But we dont call it "genocide". Because it was war. Just war, with all brutalities.

3. There was an undeclared war between Turkey and Armenians at that time; one side trying to keep its remaining lands, the other part trying to carve up an independent armenia in half of it. A war fought, that's all.

[RookieArcher]

Originally Posted by winogay
Yes - show us your sensitivity. Where are Armenians in Anatolia today? Sure some escaped...but it is documented how most were killed or forced to die.

They are mostly,
in Armenia (... when the Russian troops retreated, a great number of Armenians were obliged to migrate after them to Eastern Armenia.)
in Lebanon (Deportation to Syria)
in Syria (Deportation to Syria)
in Jerussalem/Israel-Palestine (Deportation to Syria)
in France (Deportation to Syria)
in USA (Deportation to Syria)
in Canada (Deportation to Syria)
in Argentina (Deportation to Syria)
in other countries with less significant numbers (Deportation to Syria)

[RookieArcher]

i forgot,

- also in Turkey, Turkified.

Damn. it just came to my mind. I know my mothers side. But not much about fathers side. My grandgrandfather had only one sister, no other relatives at all. He just said they came from Konya/Karaman to Cilicia. But i was not old enough to ask why he moved "alone"? What was his age when he had moved. I also remember he never prayed in mosque or at home. Hmmm... (I will make a search about this)

Damn Turks, they turkified armenians to make them denialists of today

[Crimson Glow]

1.And then the Armenians for no reason what so ever decided to revolt/rebel.
2. And then the Turks for no reason what so ever decided to kill Armenians after 500-600 years.

You know....I TRIED to have civil conversations. I TRIED to see things from the Turkish point of view, but I just can't stick my head that far up my ass. My god, what is with constantly bringing up "supporting factors" that have been shot down repeatedly? Once again, you guys say the Turks decided to kill Armenians after 500-600 years? Read some of the various threads on this forum that go deeper into this subject, or do some independent, non-biased history research of your own, and get a grip/some better insight on the living conditions prior to your precious 1877 date for the minorities within the Ottoman Empire. There's a reason all those nations you listed wanted their independence from OE. There's a reason the Armenians sided with a different Turkish political group, the Young Turks, on their attempts to overthrow the sultan government, and it sure as hell ain't because Armenians had "peaceful" living conditions under current Ottoman rule. They would have settled for better treatment, even under different Turkish occupation, after your supposed 500 year utopia, and that is precisely what the Young Turks promised (as they claimed they were equally as disgusted as the minorities by the actions of the current government). Unfortunately, they turned out to be no better then their predecessors.

So what it boils down to, weather it's merely miss-perception due to lack of knowledge on the subject, or through direct attempts to misrepresent the conditions leading up to the attacks/situation, basically....Turkey is labeling Armenians defending themselves, first against the centuries of mistreatment by the Ottoman Empire, then against the betrayal of the Young Turks, a rebellion. Simplified: Turks view Armenians' self defense against betrayal as betrayal in itself. That's some...."interesting" math.

[thinktwice]

Great Power Politics and the Armenian Question

Revolutionary Parties; Terror as Method

The Bab-i Ali Demonstrations

The Raid on the Ottoman Bank

The Armenians Last Chance:Blown By Dashnaks

The Relocation Decision:Its Causes and Consequences

Prof. Justin McCarthy's Research Results

Franz Werfel Knew That He Had Been Taken in by Forgeries

And the Moslems Victims?

The Turmoil of a War That Would Not End

Anatomy of a Senseless Crime

Armenian Terrorist Organization

I know i know your grandparents were innocent bla bla bla...

[winoman]

NoThinkTurk - you really hang what you beieve on Turkish propoganda sites? pathetic.

Rookiedenier - of course there were some Armenains who made it to Del-Zor - and to these they felt as though they were "deported" and perhaps were - but the great majority were slughtered and this has been documented. I have already posted quotes to the effect - and there are many more - that deportation was a cover for extermination.For instance - US Consul Jesse Jackson - reporting on May 12 1915 from Aleppo describes the horrors of the "deportation" march where few survive to the destination - he ends his message with the comment: " The Armenians themselves say they would by far have preferred a massacre, which would have been less disastrous for them"

An Armenian women (Pailadzu Captanian) who survived the death march from Samsun (yeah right near the front...) describes how the men from Samsun, Tokat and Ammasia (Amasya) were killed en route and how "It took us 6 weeks to traverse...100 kilometers. We were sent up and down mountains ,never on a road. The escorts were trying to kill us by hunger and exhaustion. All this rough country was full of corpses; the stench was terrible....more then half perished before reaching the Euphrates. Crossing the Eurphrates was a terrible performance, in the barges the boatmen set upon us, beat us and robbed us again nearing the bank they threw us in the water and many were drowned."

etc etc