Ottoman Armenians in the Collapse PEriod of the Empire...

[wohlkahn]

Read some history:

The territory in which the Armenians lived together for a time never was ruled by them as an independent, sovereign state. This territory was ruled by others from the earliest times from which there is evidence that Armenians lived there. From 521 to 344 B.C. it was a province of Persia. From 334 to 215 B.C. it was part of the Macedonian Empire. From 215 to 190 B.C. it was controlled by the Selephkites. From 190 until 220 A.D. it frequently changed hands between the Roman Empire and the Parthians. From 220 until the start of the fifth century it was a Sassanian province, and from then until the seventh century it belonged to Byzantium. From the seventh to the tenth centuries it was controlled by the Arabs. It returned again to Byzantine rule in the tenth century and, finally, it came under the domination of the Turks starting in the eleventh century.

The Armenians living in this territory who remained under the rule of these various empires, could not continuously maintain any sort of independent or unified Armenian state. At the most, a few Armenian noble families dominated certain districts as feudal vassals of the neighboring imperial suzerains, serving as buffers between the powerful empires that surrounded them. Most of these Armenian "principalities" were, thus, simply set up by local Armenian nobles within their own feudal dominions, or by the neighboring empires, who in this way secured their military services against their enemies. The best example of this was the Baghratid family, long brought forward by Armenian nationalist historians as an example of their historic independent existence, which was in fact put in charge of its territory by the Arab Caliphs. Some of the "Armenian" families which assumed the title of principality at this time were, moreover, really Persian rather than Armenian in origin. That they did not constitute any sort of independent nation is shown in the statement of the Armenian historian Kevork Aslan:

"The Armenians lived as local notables. They had no feeling of national unity. There were no political bonds or ties among them. Their only attachments were to the neighboring notables. Thus whatever national feelings they had were local."

[karoaper]

Read some history:

The territory in which the Armenians lived together for a time never was ruled by them as an independent, sovereign state. This territory was ruled by others from the earliest times from which there is evidence that Armenians lived there. From 521 to 344 B.C. it was a province of Persia. From 334 to 215 B.C. it was part of the Macedonian Empire. From 215 to 190 B.C. it was controlled by the Selephkites. From 190 until 220 A.D. it frequently changed hands between the Roman Empire and the Parthians. From 220 until the start of the fifth century it was a Sassanian province, and from then until the seventh century it belonged to Byzantium. From the seventh to the tenth centuries it was controlled by the Arabs. It returned again to Byzantine rule in the tenth century and, finally, it came under the domination of the Turks starting in the eleventh century.

The Armenians living in this territory who remained under the rule of these various empires, could not continuously maintain any sort of independent or unified Armenian state. At the most, a few Armenian noble families dominated certain districts as feudal vassals of the neighboring imperial suzerains, serving as buffers between the powerful empires that surrounded them. Most of these Armenian "principalities" were, thus, simply set up by local Armenian nobles within their own feudal dominions, or by the neighboring empires, who in this way secured their military services against their enemies. The best example of this was the Baghratid family, long brought forward by Armenian nationalist historians as an example of their historic independent existence, which was in fact put in charge of its territory by the Arab Caliphs. Some of the "Armenian" families which assumed the title of principality at this time were, moreover, really Persian rather than Armenian in origin. That they did not constitute any sort of independent nation is shown in the statement of the Armenian historian Kevork Aslan:

"The Armenians lived as local notables. They had no feeling of national unity. There were no political bonds or ties among them. Their only attachments were to the neighboring notables. Thus whatever national feelings they had were local."

how can you expect us to take you seriously when you try to pass others' writings as your own? Is this the bullxxxx of McCarthy or some other Ankara poodle?

forgot to add: ATATURK can suck my hairy ballz ( )

[Կարմիր Բ]

how can you expect us to take you seriously when you try to pass others' writings as your own? Is this the bullxxxx of McCarthy or some other Ankara poodle?

forgot to add: ATATURK can suck my hairy ballz ( )

It is from either www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr , karabakh-doc.azerall , www.turkishembassy.org.

Am i right domuz?

[loveataturk]

karoaper...you must be truly desperate to dream of services from a dead man???
Go kiss the hands of the French who fooled the Armenians into a rebellion that they could not bring to fruition.

[wohlkahn]

how can you expect us to take you seriously when you try to pass others' writings as your own? Is this the bullxxxx of McCarthy or some other Ankara poodle?)

Well it's actually a summary of your history, so it doesnt matter from where I've copy-pasted it. You are making a deadly mistake by denying your own history.This is very pitiful...

forgot to add: ATATURK can suck my hairy ballz ( )

Thanx (really) for telling me this. It gives me a very good reason to hate you.
Cos we turks cannot hate people without a reason (like you). This is not compatible with our traditions and morals.

(Let me guess, you dont agree again? ) This historical saying is my proof :

German General Bronsart:
"Unless they are forced, Turks are the world's most tolerant people towards those of other religions. "

[cumanicus]

Ataturk lover - it is I who might be in a position to forgive anything - not you - but I'm not ready yet - since you are displaying mostly backsliding behavior and exhibiting your true feelings here. You applaud an article which claims that it was Armenians commiting Genocide against the Turks and commiting ethnic cleansing in Van and you expect me to take you seriously? Can't you understand how ludicrous this claim is? Are you not aware of the proven falsification of reports from the Turkish side - including the repeated doctoring of reports from the city to pump up the Turkish civilian victims from 8 (yes - 8!) to 80,000! (as if the few thousand Armenians with rifles and few bullets were capable of massacring 80,000 Turks - when the Turkish army was outside the gates pressing them and was rounding up and slaughtering Armenains from villages around the entire region and driving Armenian women and children into the city to be a further burden on the Armenains under seige there). Other reports concerning Turks who fled the city were doctored to claim these numbers had been killed by Armenians...give me a break! You obviously are taking the official Turkish false, propogandistic and denialist line for something resembling truth - and regardless of real truth or evidence are clingting to it as if your life depended on it. Well the errors in this position are too numerous to mention - such as complete lack in reality - as there were enough eyewitnesses (from both sides) who reported acuratly what occured at Van (For instance - I suggest reading Nogales's account - he was a Venuzuelan officer who directed the artillery seige on the city from the Turkish side).

Anyway - you are so very wrong that you think I have no understanding or appreciation of how this whole thing is viewed from the Turkish side. Please read my past posts on the subject as I am tired of explaining everything over and over again. You really have no clue.

Winoman, what I observed at you is a kind of self confidence about your thoughts and an obsession about how Turks claims are so wrong and full of official propganda party line etc. Believe me your this self confidence and belief about how Turks' claims are full of bullxxxx and how everything is proven sounds so naive and childish. You claim that Armenians did not massacre Turks at Van or anywhere else. And you claim that all Turkish claims are false. I will not submit you a document. You say that you have traveled extensively at Turkey. Have you ever asked eldery people in Turkey who lived WW1 years? Or listen or read any of their memories? Our people lived pains, too. Many Turks are killed during and after Russian invasion and Armenians killed many Turks for revenge after Ottoman Empire lost the control over eastern anatolia. We listened those stories from those eldery people not from "official Turkish propoganda" thing. Do you really believe that a 95 years old man can lie to you or make government propoganda? Or will you claim another paranoiac story that those eldery people are financially supported by "secret Turkish propoganda machine"?
I repeat again. Sometimes an obsessive belief that being st the goods side and victim syndrome make someone blind. Why do you see eveerything as black or white, or take every critisism as an attack or thr "denial of genocide"?
And finally, what kind of future do you expect for Armenian nation with an obsesion and racist thoughts with a blind hatred against another nation? How will you construct your identity on the basis or a hatred over another nation? Once a second forget that I am Turkish and try to use your brain and make sense instead of trying to insult me because I am a Turk.

[karoaper]

Well it's actually a summary of your history, so it doesnt matter from where I've copy-pasted it. You are making a deadly mistake by denying your own history.This is very pitiful...

I bet you're a top-rated turkish scholar? You are, aren't you? You've got the academic ethics of one. I still don't know where this beautiful summary of Armenian history came from. By the way I've got a great summary of turkish history:

"Kill, Rob, Use, Pretend" -- karoaper

Thanx (really) for telling me this. It gives me a very good reason to hate you.
Cos we turks cannot hate people without a reason (like you). This is not compatible with our traditions and morals.

(Let me guess, you dont agree again? ) This historical saying is my proof :

German General Bronsart:
"Unless they are forced, Turks are the world's most tolerant people towards those of other religions. "

I nominate the above post as the funniest post of AC forum. I hope it gets the prize.

I love how turks get bent out of shape when I insult some dictator they worship as a god, while they tell us with a straight face that our link to our past, our people, our blood, our heritage who were massacred and exterminated like rats were actually the ones to blame and at any rate should have suffered what they suffered for the sake of turkey, a nation that was (and in most cases still is) despised by every single peoples who came into contact with them.

[cumanicus]

You will be labeled as racist, hatefull and immature since you continue to find something funny writing the word Turk without capital T. Noone will take you as a serious part until you stop the obsession with Turks and get a life. These are not for insult, these are you profile seem from outside. Before automatically start replying with the same stereotypes about Turks just a moment try to thing and see your reality. Just try to stop for a while thinking that "I am a Turk" or "I deny genocide" obsessions. I really have never seen a group of people like you before who based their own national identity on us, Turks. Look at your posts that you post to yourselves not to Turks. You always find something to talk about Turks everyday. You have turned this Turkish hatred thing into a hobby. I don't know how can I show your miserable appearence with any way, just imagine how Je*s seem miserable from outside if they talk about Germans every gods day. "Turkish government deny Armenian genocide so I found an ideal to live, to hate Turks" Just, just try to see your reality.

[Fadix3]

The typical regurgitation.

Do Elderly people lie? Yes they do, in this cases, they have various reasons to lie. According to the Turkish historian Avioglu(sp?), one of the two groups who profited the most from the expropriation of the Armenians were Tartars etc. immigrants that literaly stole Armenian properties and who had all the reasons in the world to lie. Those are the same people that already lied when Niles and Sutherland were sent on the East to report the necessary relief the Armenians left there needed. Those same people interviewed reported how Muslim villages were entirly destroyed, and how Armenian villages were left intact, and how it was the Muslim and not Armenians that needed those relief. Those same people were living in Armenian properties, yet they tried to get even more out of it. Let post the end of it(of this report), that revisionists prefer to hide, since it exposes the nature of it.

When the Turkish army advanced at Erzindjan, Erzerum, and Van, the Armenian army broke down and all of the soldiers, regular and irregular, turned themselves to destroying Musulman property and committing atrocities upon Musulman inhabitants. The result is a country completely ruined, containing about one-fourth of its former population and one-eighth of its former buildings, and a most bitter hatred of Musulmans for Armenians which makes it impossible for the two races to live together at the present time.

Yep, the domino effect, multiply and multiply to end up claiming that most people in the Ottoman were destroyed by Armenians, or that Armenians managed to destroy 7/8 of the buildings.

Wasn't it enough, that those same people who looted Armenians and stole their properties were interviewed and asked to testify? Shemshi and others "collections" are such forgeries that are self-decieving. Or Belge[ler] alleged documents that McCarthy considers as credible, when they are full of forgeries.

Let repost, about the so-called list of half of million Turks allegedly killed by Armenians.

"This attempt of the Armenians to defend themselves against the Turkish attack in Van was promptly misrepresented in a communique' which was sent by Enver Pasha and the Turkish Government to Berlin, and thence spread all over the world, as an attack by bands of Armenian insurrectionists who, in the rear of the Turkish army had fallen prey upon the Mohammedan population. Out of 180,000 Moslems in the Vilayet of Van only 30,000 had succeeded in escaping! In a later report issued by the Turkish embassy in Berlin on October 1, 1915, the story was further embellished: "No fewer than 180,000 Moslems had been killed. It was not surprising that the Moslems had taken vengeance for this". Some 18 Turks, answering to the number of Armenians they had killed in Van, had turned into 180,000! This astonishing impudent lie has a kind of foundation. According to statistics there should be 180,000 Moslems, including 30,000 Turks and 150,000 Kurds, in the Vilayet of Van. The Turks fled westwards when the Russian army advanced, while the 150,000 Kurds remained where they were, and were molested neither by the Russians nor the Armenians."

Armenia and the Near East, Dr. Fridtjof Nansen, 1928, p.302

Let see now the list, in which it is calculated over 500,000 Turkis were killed by Armenians. Let take Van, since those two references above refer to it. Those are the documents for Van.

Belge no. 3, Tarih. 1916-5-22, number of Victims(Van): 8

Belge no. 3, Tarih. 1916-5-22, number of Victims(Van): 8,000

Belge no. 3, Tarih. 1916-5-22, number of Victims(Van): 80.000

The three are coming from the same said “document.” One document, The same identification, the same date, the same location. One can wonder, how Armenians for the same date, the same location, in the same document could have killed, 8, 8,000 AND 80,000. In fact, there has been another version, where there has been a “1” added before the 80,000 to be presented to the Germans as the one that Nansen is referring to. James Morgan Read, in his work “Atrocity Propaganda 1914-1919,” write about the same thing: "The Turkish ally also furnished German papers with stories of Armenian cruelty to offset the unfavorable publicity directed at the Central Powers for their alliance with the "terrible Turk", the perpetrator of the "Armenian massacres." The Armenians were accused of helping the Russians burn the Moslem quarters in the province of Van, rape the women and girls, kill all the men. According to a later estimate the Russians had burned alive 500 people in one village of Van, and only 30,000 of the 180,000 Moslems in the province had escaped. Germans who read that the Armenians were especially fond of burning Turks to death were not likely to have much sympathy with the Christian minority of Turkey. An intensive anti-Armenian campaign was staged by the official Turkish news agency as late as February and March, 1918. In this group of stories the most refined types of mutilation were included, such as Armenians waylaying Turks, tearing out their lungs and hanging them on the wall."

And what is called “Belge" references itself show this falsification. They took the number 8, the number 8000 and the number 80,000 for Van, from the same document and for the same date, and have added all three... One can not delete zeros but can add them in a document, you can not delete an 8 neither. What they did was to simply add “.”(siffer, which is zero) before(before because they write from right to left) the “8” figure, and recorded those three different figures. They have thought that this was not enough, they even had the set get another “1” to make it 180,000 and they presented it to the Germans. In Van, in April, the Armenians did not attack the city, 8 Muslim lost their lives during the insurrection, in which hundreds of Armenian men were killed by the order of Djevet that ordered that any men should be killed(read Nogales account). When Nogales was on the spot, he saw that there was no Armenian revolt. There has in fact been an attack against the Muslim, but when it happened, countless numbers of Armenians were already evacuated from the region when the Russian army arrived. But when the Russian army realli invaded all the place, as W.E.D. Allen and Paul Muratoff write in their work: "Caucasian Battlefields : A History of the Wars on the Turco-Caucasian Border, 1828-1921" : "Natural difficulties were made worse by the fact that the Young Turk policy of deporting the Armenian population of the surrounding areas had been carried out too effectively. At the beginning of the war Turkish supplies had been drawn from the fertile and well-cultivated up-land basins of Eleskirt, Erzurum, Mus, and Mamahatun. All these had fallen into the hands of the Russians, while the Armenian cultivators had been driven off from the valley of Murat-cay and the great plain round Harput. At the same time Turkish peasants had, at the approach of the Russians, trekked into the interior of Anatolia. The extent of about seventy-five per cent of their inhabitants (and they have never since recovered their former degree of prosperity). "

This work is often referred by Turkish revisionists, but on the other hand, this book show us what really happened there, which had nothing to do with the Armenians. When the Russians arrived, a large party of the Armenian population in Van just escaped, and before that there has been no massacres by Armenians. They took the "8" figure and tranformed in in tens of thousands.

McCarthy himself use the Belge[ler](known as well as "Belgeler volumes" which were just a piece of fabrication), documents in his works to demonstrate Armenians butchering Muslims, as well as using Kara Schemsi works, which were the same crap, that were aimed to justify the Armenian destruction after the war.

Just to note, that Ahmed Emin in his propaganda book published in the beggining of the 30s, hasn't even provided half of those 500,000(more like the quarter, and hasnb't specified that Armenians directly killed them).

Halacoglu himself used those same lists, it says alot of his credibility.

The only thing that was 80,000 in German or Ottoman records, was German ambassador Metternich report (AA Türkei 183/40, A36184), about the number of Armenians left in Constantinople to be evacuated, after evacuating 30,000.

Also, there are other elderly Turks who remember the opposit.

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/armnm.htm

And lastly, it isen't surprising at all that there are stories of crimes perpetrated by Armenians. One people killed in a village, and an entire village will have a story of Armenian brutality. This is why, your claims about Turkish witnesses stops with: "This man knew someone that was killed by an Armenian." To have such a story, it takes on brutality in a village, to get all a village story of Armenian brutalities. I don't need to "find" elderly Armenians by searching too far. My grandparents WERE direct victims, who lost brothers, sisters, parents etc. From both sides I have such stories, and you are free to poll Armenians. While you'll bla, bla about how Armenians murdered and that you know someone that knew people that were killed, from mouth to ears, my entire family tree was effected by what happened.

BTW, if you live in Turkey, ask those living in Nallýhan why the soil is red, they believe it is the blood of the Armenians that coloured it.

Winoman, what I observed at you is a kind of self confidence about your thoughts and an obsession about how Turks claims are so wrong and full of official propganda party line etc. Believe me your this self confidence and belief about how Turks' claims are full of bullxxxx and how everything is proven sounds so naive and childish. You claim that Armenians did not massacre Turks at Van or anywhere else. And you claim that all Turkish claims are false. I will not submit you a document. You say that you have traveled extensively at Turkey. Have you ever asked eldery people in Turkey who lived WW1 years? Or listen or read any of their memories? Our people lived pains, too. Many Turks are killed during and after Russian invasion and Armenians killed many Turks for revenge after Ottoman Empire lost the control over eastern anatolia. We listened those stories from those eldery people not from "official Turkish propoganda" thing. Do you really believe that a 95 years old man can lie to you or make government propoganda? Or will you claim another paranoiac story that those eldery people are financially supported by "secret Turkish propoganda machine"?
I repeat again. Sometimes an obsessive belief that being st the goods side and victim syndrome make someone blind. Why do you see eveerything as black or white, or take every critisism as an attack or thr "denial of genocide"?
And finally, what kind of future do you expect for Armenian nation with an obsesion and racist thoughts with a blind hatred against another nation? How will you construct your identity on the basis or a hatred over another nation? Once a second forget that I am Turkish and try to use your brain and make sense instead of trying to insult me because I am a Turk.

[Fadix3]

You will be labeled as racist, hatefull and immature since you continue to find something funny writing the word Turk without capital T. Noone will take you as a serious part until you stop the obsession with Turks and get a life. These are not for insult, these are you profile seem from outside. Before automatically start replying with the same stereotypes about Turks just a moment try to thing and see your reality. Just try to stop for a while thinking that "I am a Turk" or "I deny genocide" obsessions. I really have never seen a group of people like you before who based their own national identity on us, Turks. Look at your posts that you post to yourselves not to Turks. You always find something to talk about Turks everyday. You have turned this Turkish hatred thing into a hobby. I don't know how can I show your miserable appearence with any way, just imagine how Je*s seem miserable from outside if they talk about Germans every gods day. "Turkish government deny Armenian genocide so I found an ideal to live, to hate Turks" Just, just try to see your reality.

Racist, do you mean like racist, denying a genocide, because your perverted "proud" nationalism makes you believe that Turks unlike any other ethnicity on Earth can't commit genocide? Do you believe that it isen't racism, to deny a crime, simply because the perpetrators were Turks, and the victims were Armenians?