Innocent Until Proven Guilty

[Timetells]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

I am curious. Those of you Armenians here that believe in your views, did you research this? Or did you simply take on the views given to you by your parents etc?

I would venture to say that both Turks and Armenians form most of their opinions not based on research but on what they have been brought up to believe.

Fact is, there is varying views on this and I think its in everyones interest to put this issue to rest once and for all. Armenians have the right to have their past recognized and the Turks have the right to defend theirs.

Again, I profess, that I am not a denier of anything and am open to all views and information. To those who say its simple and no need to debate anything, let me refer to Bernard Lewis and a video where he presents his view on this topic contrary to what many of you believe. Clearly the subject is not as simple as some here claim as this is a highly respected expert.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qG70UWESfu4

[NightOwl]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

20 countries have recognized the genocide, its a well researched and documented fact. The US Foreign Affaris Coimmitte all said there was a Genocide even ones who didnt vote for a reolution.
Its recognized in 40 states in America.
Stop being in denial, your like a drug addict who says they have no problem.
Get help.

[skhara]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qG70UWESfu4

Well I agree with this alleged "expert" on one thing -- absolutely no similarity to the alleged "holocaust".

Now eat sh*t and die. I mean eat yourself and die.

http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=6931

[Sip]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

I am curious. Those of you Armenians here that believe in your views, did you research this? Or did you simply take on the views given to you by your parents etc?

I have researched it. I agree a lot more with historians and experts on the subject rather than what the Turkish government (aka politicians) claim.

Once again, there is really nothing to "doubt", "discuss", or "ponder". The facts are indisputed and very clear and well established. The problem right now (and for the last 90+ years) has been Turkish denial of facts. Period.

[Timetells]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Again, I do not deny anything or accept anything, instead I have chosen to explore and find out more. I think those of you who cling to your views with no consideration of the 'other' view are simply adopting what has been handed down to you by your parents etc which ironically is the same for Turks on this matter. Thus, any logical person who truly wanted to engage in meaningful discussion on this must realize that this is one of the primary reasons why this has never been solved and these two people after almost 100 years have yet to still make peace.

As hard as it may be, people need to take the emotionality out of the picture and try to remain objective and open minded to the other side. Ask yourself, if I was Turkish, would I accept easily that my forefathers committed the most heinous acts imaginable? Of course not, nobody could, so instead of disrespecting the culture and history some of you claim is so important, why not try to bring justice by at least in a civil and constructive manner talk to people who are willing to engage you on this topic.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

There is no 'other' view except that of genocide deniers. Yeah, there is no Ottoman Turkey because Turkish countrymen were so embarrassed of their past they tried to erase it so they could avoid the blame. They changed their language. But, they could not change their name.

[Sip]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Timetells, I suggest you do your research before you come here and state what others know and don't know. Many of us have done very indepth research on this issue. Just because you don't know, please don't assume we don't know.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Timetells, please graciously honor us with your opinion of the below which reflects an Israeli scholar chastising Mr. Shimon Peres for denying the Armenian genocide. Thanks.
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http://www.anca.org/action_alerts/action_docs.php?docsid=30

Holocaust Scholar Israel Charny Responds To Shimon Peres' Statements in the Turkish Press
A Press Release by The Armenian Genocide Resource Center
5400 McBryde Ave, Richmond, CA 94805
4/12/01
<< Back to Action List
For Immediate Release
April 12, 2001
Contact: Richard Kloian, (510) 965-0152
[email protected]

Professor Israel Charny, Executive Director of The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem, Israel, today issued a public letter in response to Shimon Peres's statements as reported in the Turkish Daily News.

Denial of genocide is a one aspect of genocide studies that Dr. Charny has devoted considerable energy to and published extensively on. It has become a major sub field of its own in the overall field of genocide studies.

AGRC received the following letter from Dr. Charny who asked that it herewith be made public in the Armenian press.


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April 12, 2001

The Honorable Shimon Peres, Foreign Minister
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, State of Israel
Jerusalem, Israel

Re: Report in Turkish Daily News, Ankara, 10 April 2001

Dear Mr. Peres:

I offer you my deepest respects for your enormous contributions to the security and development of Israel, and to peace.

Nonetheless, it has been my privilege for many years not to agree with your position regarding the Armenian Genocide. It seems that because of your wish to advance very important relations with Turkey, you have been prepared to circumvent the subject of the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1920.

(Thus you advised me in a telephone conversation in 1982 not to insist on including the subject of the Armenians in the First International Conference on the Holocaust and Genocide that we convened in Tel-Aviv, and I then made the decision not to give in to pressures of the Foreign Ministry to cancel the lectures on the Armenian genocide or to cancel the entire conference.)

It seems to me, according to yesterday's report in the Ankara newspaper, that you have gone beyond a moral boundary that no xxx should allow himself to trespass. You are quoted as follows: "We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide."

For the record, in 2000, at a Conference on the Holocaust in Philadelphia, a large number of researchers of the Holocaust, including Israeli historians, signed a public declaration that the Armenian Genocide was factual.

Also for the record, in 1997, at the meeting of the Association of Genocide Scholars, the Association as a whole officially voted a resolution that the Armenians had been subject to full-scale genocide.

Even as I disagree with you, it may be that in your broad perspective of the needs of the State of Israel, it is your obligation to circumvent and desist from bringing up the subject with Turkey, but as a xxx and an Israeli I am ashamed of the extent to which you have now entered into the range of actual denial of the Armenian Genocide, comparable to denials of the Holocaust.

Respectfully,

Prof. Israel W. Charny
Executive Director,
Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem, Israel
Editor-in-Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide
[ABC-Clio Publishers, UK & USA, 1999]
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P.S. Mr. Bernard Lewis is nothing more than a genocide denier veiled in academia.

[Timetells]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

My opinion stands the same and that is that a common person cannot easily come to a conclusion on this topic. The sort of time required to investigate and come to a conclusion which is irrefutable would be tremendous. You have provided links supporting one view and I have provided just one link supporting another view. This is a topic which is highly debated amongst expects and the rest of us simply adopt one or the other view. That is why after almost 100 years there has yet to be any kind agreement between to these two people.

Solution?

First step, set up a 'system' of investigation that is agreeable to both sides. Ensure to have experts in both, especially individuals who are not bias to either position. Let both people/nations agree to this investigation committee and the results it will bring. Then let the committee sort through it all and come to a decision.

I have made this suggestion before and many Armenians are offended as they feel any debate equates to denial. But even the most heinous crimes require due process. Why spend millions on lobbyists efforts? Wouldn't it be more practical and the right thing to do to spend money aimed at getting to the truth?

The decision by such a committee would be irrefutable. Not just 20 nations would recognize the Armenian Genocide but the world would, all nations and even Turkey. For the Turks, this would give them an opportunity to finally validate the arguments they have been using for deny the Genocide. It is a win-win scenario for both people in my opinion.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

I am curious. Those of you Armenians here that believe in your views, did you research this? Or did you simply take on the views given to you by your parents etc?

I would venture to say that both Turks and Armenians form most of their opinions not based on research but on what they have been brought up to believe. His head is so far up his arse, he needs a glass belly to see what goes on in the outside world.

Fact is, there is varying views on this and I think its in everyones interest to put this issue to rest once and for all. Armenians have the right to have their past recognized and the Turks have the right to defend theirs.

Again, I profess, that I am not a denier of anything and am open to all views and information. To those who say its simple and no need to debate anything, let me refer to Bernard Lewis and a video where he presents his view on this topic contrary to what many of you believe. Clearly the subject is not as simple as some here claim as this is a highly respected expert.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qG70UWESfu4

Citing Bernard Lewis as an authority on this particular topic is tantamount to citing Bush as an authority on invading Iraq.

It is pointless because Bernard Lewis is a Zionist who has a vested interest in downplaying the Armenian genocide, which is why Israel and Turkey are such close allies, and why Israel continues to deny the Armenian genocide. Who would have thought? Bernard Lewis is the manifestation of how the Turkish and Israeli collusion on the political scale is carried out by underling historians like Lewis, in the academic scale.