Innocent Until Proven Guilty

[Timetells]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Your animosity and anger are such that you even misinterpret statements amongst yourselves. How can anyone hope to have any kind of meaningful discussion like this?

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Timetells, you are not here for meaningful discussion. Who are you kidding? You avoid the truth, the historical record, the judgments against your war criminals and generally recognized fact in pursuit of passionate historical examination.

This is genocide denial.

What is left to discuss with you?

[Timetells]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

You win freaky.
I was hoping for something but this was not it.

IMO all you accomplish is to chase away good people who come here to engage in discussion with you.

What have you gained by this? Does it correct the injustice done to your ancestors? Does it make the wrong a right? Wouldn't it bring much for satisfaction to talk to the person and maybe one day have that person come around to your point of view? Isn't that what many Armenians say? That when Turks do not recognize the Genocide it makes it worse, so when you have someone who is coming here to hear and learn your point of view you chase them away.

[Sip]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Timetells, you are saying you don't know. Some here are trying to teach you. Then you say oh no but things are complicated and there are so many sides to the story.

If you don't know, then listen (read) what has been said here and LEARN.
If you do know, and don't agree, then get lost. There is NOTHING to debate here. The facts are the facts and that's it.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

But, Sip it is very complicated, Timetells is a genuine, covert, genocide denier and he wants you to get his point.

We must debate that which has been reduced to a historically recognized event appease the intellectually insincere and reduce their bloodthirst.

Timetells, if you need any indication of why Armenians do not want to sit at the table and reconcile or discuss this matter further, you need look no farther than Hrant Dink (a Turkish moderate) who was killed for voicing his reasonable position re: reconciliation or what occurred in Brussels recently.http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=23795

Likely, the only thing Armenian and non-Armenian historians shall subject themselves by sitting at the same table with Turks to discuss their sham denials is their pending demise at the hands of Turkish nationalist fanatics.

Not only are minorities in Turkey in jeopardy of peril for voicing their opinions there, but minorities outside of Turkey are at the peril of Turkish thugs for the truth being discussed openly on the world stage.

This proposed debate would likely lead to the killing of intellectuals similar to those that occurred in 1915.

Either show some true sincerity which your position up to this point severly lacks, or bug off.

But don't expect anyone here to fall for your psychobabble trash about how this is so complicated and common persons are incapable of reaching conclusions, and blah, blah, blah.

That is just genocide denial packaged as a-ssinine ignorance.

[WTG, Sip. While I may not always agree with you or the methodology you use to reach your opinions, I agree with your right to voice them and with your position expressed above. It certainly is more dignified than the approach I sometimes choose to take; but, we all have our reasons.]

[Timetells]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Some of you are so full of hate towards Turks that you assume if they ask questions about the genocide it is because they are bad people bent on denying the truth.

Consider, if someone accused your brother, or a family member of a terrible crime, what would your first impulse be? Of course you would defend that family member, but at the same time if you were a just person, you would want to find the truth and if indeed they were guilty of the crime, you would accept it...

In order for people to learn the truth there must be discussion. There must be dialogue.

If a Turk wanders in here and wants to discuss this, you don't slam the door on his or her face. On one hand you want Turks to recognize the genocide and blame the government of Turkey for not teaching Turks the truth and on the other hand when you face a Turk who wants to discuss it you slam them, accuse them of bloodlust etc...

[crusader1492]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Some of you are so full of hate towards Turks that you assume if they ask questions about the genocide it is because they are bad people bent on denying the truth.

Consider, if someone accused your brother, or a family member of a terrible crime, what would your first impulse be? Of course you would defend that family member, but at the same time if you were a just person, you would want to find the truth and if indeed they were guilty of the crime, you would accept it...

In order for people to learn the truth there must be discussion. There must be dialogue.

If a Turk wanders in here and wants to discuss this, you don't slam the door on his or her face. On one hand you want Turks to recognize the genocide and blame the government of Turkey for not teaching Turks the truth and on the other hand when you face a Turk who wants to discuss it you slam them, accuse them of bloodlust etc...

If you are sincere (highly doubtful), then the only thing to say is that the Armenians on this forum are much smarter than you. You see, they have studied the situation and come up with the only logical answer that a Genocide occured at the hand of Turks.
How much patience do you expect Armenians to have with slow learning, dime-a-dozen, Turks such as yourself?
You will get no satisfaction here...but if you wish to convince people of your "truth", there are plenty of American forums (especially the Republican ones) who will absorb your nonsense all day long (as long as you throw in anti-Pelosi statemens for good measure).

In short: GET LOST CREEP

[Anonymouse]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Citing Bernard Lewis as an authority on this particular topic is tantamount to citing Bush as an authority on invading Iraq.

It is pointless because Bernard Lewis is a Zionist who has a vested interest in downplaying the Armenian genocide, which is why Israel and Turkey are such close allies, and why Israel continues to deny the Armenian genocide. Who would have thought? Bernard Lewis is the manifestation of how the Turkish and Israeli collusion on the political scale is carried out by underling historians like Lewis, in the academic scale.

....

[Armenian]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Apres, aper...

Citing Bernard Lewis as an authority on this particular topic is tantamount to citing Bush as an authority on invading Iraq. It is pointless because Bernard Lewis is a Zionist who has a vested interest in downplaying the Armenian genocide, which is why Israel and Turkey are such close allies, and why Israel continues to deny the Armenian genocide. Who would have thought? Bernard Lewis is the manifestation of how the Turkish and Israeli collusion on the political scale is carried out by underling historians like Lewis, in the academic scale.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

I think those of you who cling to your views with no consideration of the 'other' view are simply adopting what has been handed down to you by your parents etc which ironically is the same for Turks on this matter. Thus, any logical person who truly wanted to engage in meaningful discussion on this must realize that this is one of the primary reasons why this has never been solved and these two people after almost 100 years have yet to still make peace.

I would actually agree with this 100%. It pisses me off when Armenians don't take the time to actually research the genocide, making it look like Turkish arguments, most of which are extremely weak, have merit due to an inability to address those arguments stemming from a lack of knowledge. They sound just as pathetic as the deniers themselves. They allow the Turks to put their foot in the door by offering weak "evidence" that can easily be refuted. Case in point:

20 countries have recognized the genocide, its a well researched and documented fact. The US Foreign Affaris Coimmitte all said there was a Genocide even ones who didnt vote for a reolution.
Its recognized in 40 states in America.

That's not evidence. That's politics. It doesn't address the "points" that the Turks bring up in any way, shape or form. They can easily say those countries recognize the genocide due to strong lobbying pressure, and to win votes, just as Armenians point out that Turks make threats and spend millions lobbying nations NOT to recognize it. Learn the hard facts of this event and everything that led up to it so that you can actually understand why they hold no merit. Stating "the genocide happened because my grandpa said so" is not evidence.

I am curious. Those of you Armenians here that believe in your views, did you research this? Or did you simply take on the views given to you by your parents etc?

Copy/pasted from another thread to give you a general idea of my background, and where I'm coming from:

I was born and raised in the US, specifically in a far SW suburb of Chicago, where the yuppies stare at you blankly when you mention Armenian. I never knew any Armenians growing up. All of my relatives live in So Cal. My parents never really discussed the genocide. Quite frankly, they don't know jack about it. It was just some insignificant thing during my childhood, when my biggest concern was assimilating. I often felt embarrassed about being "weird" due to my ethnic background.

In my early 20's, I started taking greater interest in my ethnicity. Naturally, digging around on the internet, the first thing I came across was talk of the genocide. Between not having much diaspora influence around to drill it in me that the genocide happened, and seeing how vehemently the Turks denied these accusations, I started thinking "...maybe the Armenians ARE lying". Being the ever inquisitive bastard I am, I launched my research on the subject. It was around a year long journey of reading books, archives, websites, memos, diaries, watching movies, documentaries, etc. I started by reading as much Turkish biased info as I could to start my understanding of the events from their perspective. By the end of that, I already started getting the feeling that something wasn't adding up. The Turkish side couldn't pick one story to stick to. None of the denial excuses were consistent, and only seemed to contradicted each other. Then I dove into the Armenian side, followed by general history info that was unrelated to the genocide (just various time lines from that era). It wasn't very difficult to see that the Armenian side made far more sense, and had much more supporting evidence. Both sides have their share of propaganda, but once you brush aside all the BS, and let the dust settle, it was obvious that the Turkish defense didn't have a leg to stand on.

Wouldn't it bring much for satisfaction to talk to the person and maybe one day have that person come around to your point of view? when you have someone who is coming here to hear and learn your point of view you chase them away.

Yeaaaah. Take a good look at the posts throughout this forum from your fellow Turks, and tell me which one is here to "learn our point of view". Show me which one doesn't parrot the same company lines over, and over and over again. I used to waste my time staying up till 3 or 4 in the morning getting into debates about this issue with actual hard facts, and detailed history/time-lines. But every time I easily dismissed their piss-poor arguments, they would just ignore it, and repeat the same thing with nothing to back it up. Then a few days later, a new Turk would join and start a thread about the same EXACT, already defeated argument. You'd think they were bots.

On any other message board, if a "n00b" comes in and asks a stupid, beginner question, they're torn to shreds by all the veterans for not using the search feature. This isn't done for the hell of it. It's because they're sick of dealing with those same questions. Here, when a Turk is told off for their "n00b" questions/comments, it's because "Armenians hate Turks", or "I proved you wrong, that's why you won't answer me"! No. We won't answer you (Turks in general who make such comments) because we've answered others like you dozens of times over. For example, the video you linked to earlier which features the recently invented excuse that there were HUGE forces of rebellion. This has become the staple of denailsts like McCarthy and Bernard. Unfortunately, it's been addressed here several times:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?p=173269#post173269

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?p=173352#post173352

If Turks REALLY want answers to their questions, they're out there. You'd be amazed what you can find when doing actual scholarly research instead of relying on Turkey's official stance, or Justin McCarthy's website.