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Innocent Until Proven Guilty

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  • #21
    Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Well at the very least I do thank every Turkish individual in here who is not in denial like the Turkish government of today is and has been for the past 92 years.

    My father was a survivor from the Genocide. He was a mere child when it happened and one day him and his mother and aunts saw the bodies of his own father who recently came back from America and he was 36 years old then, the bodies of his 80 year old grandfather and his uncles. All killed in cold blood. Then for about a year they stayed at their Kurdish servants' house (him, his grandmother, his mother, aunts and their children). My father used to go to help with the crops with his servants to help out. Then one day he came back and the whole house was empty. The Turkish gendarmes took away his mother, grandmother, aunts and the children away. He never ever saw them again. Then about a couple of years later suddenly my father's young aunt and uncle appeared at night and they took my father away to this brave Armenian woman who was able to send my father to the American Orpahange. And that's how my dear father came to be alive. My father for years later couldn't have a sleepless night. Every night he would wake up suddenly agonyzingly crying in cold sweat remembering all these incidences that happened to his family and the agonyzing thought of them killed wouldn't let him sleep in peace.

    On my mother's side in Smyrna in 1922, my maternal grandmother who came from a very wealthy family and they were all in all 150 members. From all of them only 5 of them survived. My grandmother, her 16 year old sister, her brothers and her cousin. One of my grandmother's cousin who was 8 months pregnant, the gendarmes after taking away all the men and killing them, they have opened up her pregnant cousin's belly to see if it was a boy or a girl. They obviously killed my grandmother's cousin and her baby instantly. Then they attacked my grandmother by hitting her shoulder with a gun, then her 3 year old nephew objected and told the gendarmes not to hit her loving aunt. The Turkish gendarmes immediately beheaded the 3 year old little boy's head. You couldn't imagine how agonyzing it must have been to the mother and my grandmother to see all this happening in front of their eyes.

    On my maternal grandfather's side in 1915 they have killed all his family as well and because my poor grandfather was a colonel in the Turkish army and a very educated man, he didn't know about the massacres of the Armenians and about the Genocide until much later; and one can imagine how horribly devastating it was for him when he learned of all these atrocities against his family and his race.

    The Turkish government seems to be taking it lightly about the killings of 1.5 million Armenians from 1915 through 1923; but it wasn't and it isn't to be taken lightly for the Armenians dead or alive. By denying it they are further hurting our innocent martyrs' memories and they are also hurting every Armenian individual. It is like killing our martyrs over and over again. The Turkish government should get over this by at the very least accepting that the then Ittihadist government committed a heinous crime against humanity. Against the Armenian nation.
    Last edited by Anoush; 10-21-2007, 04:33 PM.

    Comment


    • #22
      Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

      Tsavit danem Anoush jan.

      Timetells, experts do not debate this. Turkish hacks and revisionists do for purposes beyond detailing the truth. I notice that you have no response to Mr. Charny's letter to Mr. Peres. That's because Mr. Peres position is as indefensible as your position.

      You can't find more than a handful of links supporting your position because your position is the minority view and the view of the distorters. Basically, racisits and zionists veiled in academia.

      There is no need for further investigation. Some of your heroes were already tried in absentia because they were cowards to ashamed to face the consequences of their actions.

      Turkey is not interested in facing the truth. If they were, they would have already done so. No right-minded, respectable historian or academic would want to engage in a debate with myopic racists like Guenter Lewy, Bernard Lewis, Hacoglu, etc.

      These people are considered to be on the fringes of the academic community. They're are not disinterested but stake their position for either nationalistic or zionist purposes.

      If anyone has been brainwashed into their position, it is you and your ilk not the Armenians. If you cannot respond to the likes of disinterested historians like Charny, then how are your kin going to handle the massive facts stacked against them and supporting that the events of 1915 are actually not allegations of genocide but, in fact, actual genocide.

      I don't see J-ewish holocaust survivors reconciling with Germany or engaging in debate with German scholars re: whether or not J-ews suffered Holocaust. Why should we Armenians be required to suffer the double killing that you think Turks are entitled to put us up to.
      Between childhood, boyhood,
      adolescence
      & manhood (maturity) there
      should be sharp lines drawn w/
      Tests, deaths, feats, rites
      stories, songs & judgements

      - Morrison, Jim. Wilderness, vol. 1, p. 22

      Comment


      • #23
        Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

        Curious, what do some of you think about Hrant Dink?

        Nihat Genç'in, gazeteci Hrant Dink'in öldürüldüğü günün akşamı SKYTURK televizyonunda yaptığı konuşma...


        Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




        "Aşağılayacaksam ben neden bu ülkede yaşıyorum. Gider uzaktan aşağılarım BAŞIMA DA BU BELALAR GELMEZ" Bu mermiler Türkiye halkına ve huzurumuza sıkıldı. uyuy...



        I am not sure if many of you know this man, what he stood for or even if you know Turkish to be able to understand the links to videos about him I provided. I really respect him, he was a good person and he did not deserve what happened to him. Even if I disagreed with some of his views, I saw him as a person would could bridge the divide between Turks and Armenians. He is another person now that I am referring to who has so far influenced my opinion on this subject, is he Zionist or a Nationalist also?

        I think it is easy for some of you to continue to hate Turks and dehumanize us and generalize that we all have the same opinions etc. This is a simple view that does nothing more than breed more hatred and ultimately become an obstacle for reconciliation.

        Consider, that many of you are proud Armenians. You deeply respect your past, it gives you a sense of identity - well the same goes for Turks. As much as you are 'defending' the memory of your ancestors, Turks feel they are doing the same by defending the memory of their ancestors. I think both people are right in how they feel. Perhaps one view is accurate and another is not or maybe there are truths in both - I am not sure.

        That is why I am a supporter of an international effort to research and make a final decision on this. This approach in my opinion is the only way to solve this.
        Last edited by Timetells; 10-22-2007, 04:50 AM.

        Comment


        • #24
          Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

          Originally posted by Aka Mr VaG

          At his funeral, one hundred thousand mourners marched in protest of the assassination, chanting "We are all Armenians" and "We are all Hrant Dink". Criticism of Article 301 became increasingly vocal after his death, leading to parliamentary proposals for repeal.

          He was a gr8 man
          Footnote: Those hundred of mourders were Turkish people....

          What is 301. ??? Can you explain? what 301 says?

          Comment


          • #25
            Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

            Originally posted by Aka Mr VaG
            Dink was prosecuted three times for denigrating Turkishness, while receiving numerous death threats from Turkish nationalists.

            Hrant Dink was assassinated in Istanbul in January 2007, by Ogün Samast, a 17-year old Turkish nationalist
            They are not nationalist! They are bastard fascist!! Nationalizm and Facizm are very different!

            Comment


            • #26
              Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

              Originally posted by Timetells View Post
              Again, I do not deny anything or accept anything, instead I have chosen to explore and find out more. I think those of you who cling to your views with no consideration of the 'other' view are simply adopting what has been handed down to you by your parents etc which ironically is the same for Turks on this matter. Thus, any logical person who truly wanted to engage in meaningful discussion on this must realize that this is one of the primary reasons why this has never been solved and these two people after almost 100 years have yet to still make peace.

              As hard as it may be, people need to take the emotionality out of the picture and try to remain objective and open minded to the other side. Ask yourself, if I was Turkish, would I accept easily that my forefathers committed the most heinous acts imaginable? Of course not, nobody could, so instead of disrespecting the culture and history some of you claim is so important, why not try to bring justice by at least in a civil and constructive manner talk to people who are willing to engage you on this topic.
              Timetells

              You obviously has taken the dreadful denialist attitude and deeds of the Turkish government. What the hell are you talking about???????

              Practically the whole Armenian race was killed in a most heinous way by torture and then killed in cold blood from 1915 through 1923.

              I therefore stand with Armenia. And Armenia does not wish to re-prove their one and a half million of their martyrs' killings by your Ittihadists. All they will come across to is denialist people who would like very much to distort history and their heinous murders to conceal for Turky's benefit only.

              If the Ittihadists did not murder and kill our 1.5 million Armenians; today we would have been 30 million all in all. Not to mention the 300 thousand souls that were killed by your red sultan from 1895 through 1896. Then again by the Ittihadists in Adana the 8 thousand Armenians that the Ittihadists killed in 1908.

              History has been recorded all these heinous premeditated crimes to get rid of the Armenian race. History does not need to be reproved. History speaks for itself.

              Comment


              • #27
                Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

                Originally posted by freakyfreaky View Post
                Tsavit danem Anoush jan.

                Timetells, experts do not debate this. Turkish hacks and revisionists do for purposes beyond detailing the truth. I notice that you have no response to Mr. Charny's letter to Mr. Peres. That's because Mr. Peres position is as indefensible as your position.

                You can't find more than a handful of links supporting your position because your position is the minority view and the view of the distorters. Basically, racisits and zionists veiled in academia.

                There is no need for further investigation. Some of your heroes were already tried in absentia because they were cowards to ashamed to face the consequences of their actions.

                Turkey is not interested in facing the truth. If they were, they would have already done so. No right-minded, respectable historian or academic would want to engage in a debate with myopic racists like Guenter Lewy, Bernard Lewis, Hacoglu, etc.

                These people are considered to be on the fringes of the academic community. They're are not disinterested but stake their position for either nationalistic or zionist purposes.

                If anyone has been brainwashed into their position, it is you and your ilk not the Armenians. If you cannot respond to the likes of disinterested historians like Charny, then how are your kin going to handle the massive facts stacked against them and supporting that the events of 1915 are actually not allegations of genocide but, in fact, actual genocide.

                I don't see J-ewish holocaust survivors reconciling with Germany or engaging in debate with German scholars re: whether or not J-ews suffered Holocaust. Why should we Armenians be required to suffer the double killing that you think Turks are entitled to put us up to.
                Freaky, what exactly are you talking about responding to Charny? And what are you saying about being brainwashed????? I am not at all brainwashed. I don't know what you are talking about? Can you clarify?

                Yet about the J-ewish holaucost survivors not engaging in any debate with the German scholars about their massacred J-ews by the Nazis. That part you are right. Why and why should we Armenians be required to suffer the double killings that the Turks for 92 years now are putting us up to?

                Comment


                • #28
                  Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

                  Originally posted by Anoush View Post
                  Freaky, what exactly are you talking about responding to Charny? And what are you saying about being brainwashed????? I am not at all brainwashed. I don't know what you are talking about? Can you clarify?

                  Yet about the J-ewish holaucost survivors not engaging in any debate with the German scholars about their massacred J-ews by the Nazis. That part you are right. Why and why should we Armenians be required to suffer the double killings that the Turks for 92 years now are putting us up to?
                  Anoush, this was directed at Timetells, not you. I referred him/her to the letter by Mr. Charny to Mr. Peres which chastises Peres for denying the genocide. He/she has been brainwashed not you. I was not referring to you.

                  Timetells, what you are doing is genocide denial - no matter how subtle or scholarly you attempt to portray yourself.
                  Between childhood, boyhood,
                  adolescence
                  & manhood (maturity) there
                  should be sharp lines drawn w/
                  Tests, deaths, feats, rites
                  stories, songs & judgements

                  - Morrison, Jim. Wilderness, vol. 1, p. 22

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

                    FROM TIMETELLS.

                    I think it is easy for some of you to continue to hate Turks and dehumanize us and generalize that we all have the same opinions etc. This is a simple view that does nothing more than breed more hatred and ultimately become an obstacle for reconciliation.

                    Consider, that many of you are proud Armenians. You deeply respect your past, it gives you a sense of identity - well the same goes for Turks. As much as you are 'defending' the memory of your ancestors, Turks feel they are doing the same by defending the memory of their ancestors. I think both people are right in how they feel. Perhaps one view is accurate and another is not or maybe there are truths in both - I am not sure.

                    That is why I am a supporter of an international effort to research and make a final decision on this. This approach in my opinion is the only way to solve this.
                    Timetells:

                    It is your Turkish government that are guilty for 92 years now by associating themselves with the then murderous Ittihadist government and by paying 30 million dollars from 2000 through 2005 to one American congressman and then to another American congressman 5 million dollars in 2006 NOT to pass the GENOCIDE Resolution. By denying such a dreadful historical fact they are themselves killing again and again our 1.5+ martyrs. They are (your Turkish government) who is actively working against acceptance of their Ittihadist government's murderous acts by frightening and educating wrongly to their whole nation to deny such thruthful FACTS. The Turkish goverment has passed that law of the 305 Rule that it is against turkishness to speak for the Genocide.

                    A good many of your Turkish historians alongside Orhan Pamuk who spoke bravely about the Armenian Genocide that the then Turkish goverment has committed, and a good many Turkish historians as well spoke openly about the Genocide within the past 2 to 3 years when they went to California at the California Tech University and spoke about the fact that Turkey MUST not deny the Armenian Genocide and SHOULD speak bravely about it and go forward as a nation. Your dignified Turkish historians and scholars openly talked about the Armenian Genocide and have found to be wrong of Turkey to deny the Armenian Genocide.

                    Please go and open up history books of dignified and of respectful and thruthful European and worldly nature; but NOT the ones that are in Turkey the denyalist history books who re-wrote history.

                    Then come here and speak with us more intelligently!!!!!

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

                      Originally posted by freakyfreaky View Post
                      Anoush, this was directed at Timetells, not you. I referred him/her to the letter by Mr. Charny to Mr. Peres which chastises Peres for denying the genocide. He/she has been brainwashed not you. I was not referring to you.

                      Timetells, what you are doing is genocide denial - no matter how subtle or scholarly you attempt to portray yourself.
                      Hi again freaky jan;

                      I understand you now and thank you for your initial post of saying Tsavet danem. Yes al kou tsavet danem as we understand each other my compatriot cyber friend.

                      I have answered to Timetells myself as well and you are right. He is subtely denying it. Unfortunately he didn't open up the more thruthful history books as yet, and he should to better educate himself!!!!!

                      Comment

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