Innocent Until Proven Guilty

[Virgil]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Virgil,

Every person when born is innocent of any crimes. If a person commits a crime then they are held accountable for it, not their entire family and surely not future generations of their family. That is not justice.

Asking apologies from people just based on their race is racism.

Bullxxxx, you commit a crime, if the crime is not resolved by that persons descendents then those descendents are also guilty of the crime, it is inherited. Understand, you can not win, there exists no justification for genocide, you killed and oppressed innocents, this is the legacy of the Ottoman Empire, face it, confront it, and accept it.

But you are assuming many things, you are taking my motives at face value, which then begs the question, do I want the Armenian genocide to be recognized or am I just pretending to want the Armenian genocide recognized and addressed, maybe I am just playing devil's advocate in order to push Turks away from recognition and a solution to the problem. And maybe I am just using reverse psychology on you, maybe this is all a ploy to push you to recognize it. Which is it, you ask? I don't know, maybe you should think really hard and try to come up with a answer.

[Sip]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Virgil,

Every person when born is innocent of any crimes. If a person commits a crime then they are held accountable for it, not their entire family and surely not future generations of their family. That is not justice.

In most civilized societies, "possession of stolen property" is a crime. So if you are born into a household that is BUILT on stolen land and you directly benefit from stolen things (including stolen lives), then you are very much a criminal.

[Timetells]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

you commit a crime, if the crime is not resolved by that persons descendents then those descendents are also guilty of the crime, it is inherited - Virgil

With all due respect, this is just a ridiculous statement.

But you are assuming many things, you are taking my motives at face value, which then begs the question, do I want the Armenian genocide to be recognized or am I just pretending to want the Armenian genocide recognized and addressed, maybe I am just playing devil's advocate in order to push Turks away from recognition and a solution to the problem. And maybe I am just using reverse psychology on you, maybe this is all a ploy to push you to recognize it. Which is it, you ask? I don't know, maybe you should think really hard and try to come up with a answer. - Virgil

I have no idea what your intentions are, maybe you are playing mind games or maybe you aren't. I am much more transparent as evident by my posts. I come to discuss this in a friendly, open and honest manner.

In most civilized societies, "possession of stolen property" is a crime. So if you are born into a household that is BUILT on stolen land and you directly benefit from stolen things (including stolen lives), then you are very much a criminal. - Sip

First of all, do you live in Armenia? I see many Armenians who live in the US demand land for Armenia, which to me is hypocritical. Those lands were stolen from the Native Americans. This 'stolen items' argument is weak and it only serves to cloud the issue which I thought was genocide.

This discussion isn't going anywhere. I made an effort but its too difficult to overcome the hatred some of you have towards Turks. When you start accusing new born babies of crimes based on their bloodline - thats called racism.

[Sip]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Those lands were stolen from the Native Americans. This 'stolen items' argument is weak and it only serves to cloud the issue which I thought was genocide.

1. Are you really trying to justify one Genocide with another?

2. The US has VERY openly admitted (and continues to admit) its genocidal crimes against the Native Americans. But if you intend to continue to compare what the Turks did to what the "Americans" did to the natives, I would say you are doing a bit better than what you were saying before but you still have a long ways to go.

[crusader1492]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Timetells,

You will not find absolution here unless you stop perpetuating the lies and slanders of your forefathers. Only then, will you be consindered somewhat human.
I, for one, have no hope for you.

[Virgil]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

With all due respect, this is just a ridiculous statement.

No, you are ridiculous for coming to a Armenian forum with an intent to "mend relations" and then once given the chance to speak, you just spit in our face again.

Again, let me go back one post and give you analogy, if you are a mafia boss with a family, your children although technically "innocent" are still living under the root, driving the car, and wearing cloths that were purchased by blood money. Now, based on your logic the children are innocent because they are not the ones commiting the crime, but in my opinion, they are only innocent to the exent that they are not aware of where the income comes from, esentially, this is the heart of my argument.

If you are a Turk xyz and you know a genocide was committed, unless you stop the state from spreading lies and concealing the truth in your Turkish name, you Turk xyz, are part of the denial machine and thus, associate to the crime in the question, only dishonest people continue to a support a lie or else any honest perosn, with a decent morals, and a belief in the fundimental human rights would be brave enough to confront the truth and fix what was done wrong in his or her name.

If you support your government, you are essentially guilty because you acknowledge a crime has been committed, but choose to remain ignorant or deny any wrong doing because you fear that you may have to give what you stole back, thus, inheriting the guilt in the process. Does this make sense? Admit it, you just don't want to accept the truth because it is inconvinient for you.

I have no idea what your intentions are, maybe you are playing mind games or maybe you aren't. I am much more transparent as evident by my posts. I come to discuss this in a friendly, open and honest manner.

Transparent...I am transparent, the truth is never the "truth", there exists mulitple plots, and even when the culprit is found there exists another guilty party, another truth, another motive, which interest has been pushed forward? God knows, but consider all the Armenians on this forum, you have to taser the majority to show some national interest or feelings towards the state, my god, consider the multiple threads of Armenian guy or girl xyz that asks dumb questions like "Hey, do you think its ok if we date Turks", "Is marrying a Turk ok", some abnormality along those lines, what do you think would happen if the genocide was recognized and what convinctions or personal duties can any Armenian nationalist place upon them? What is the legacy that will "unify them", think about it a second, you say compenstation is a loss, if I were a Turk I would consider it a investment, I think I will stop here, I don't want to wet your appetite (Or maybe I do?), but I will close with a analogy, historically, when kings hide themselves in their castles it is usually the gatekeeper that determines the fate of the kingdom. Consider the fact that 3 million Armenians reside in Armenia, 40 million Turks in Turkey, what would happen if borders were opened based on the premise that a "compensation was paid" and bitter hostlities are now the "backbone of future bilateral development", how easy would it be to invade Armenia with a Trojan Horse? So the plot thickens and a new interest is placed in your head, are Armenians doing themselves a favor by placing the burden justice on the shoulders of foreigners or are they benefiting Turks? I will leave it to you to think about what I said and maybe I am just playing mind games or maybe, there exists another motive in me revealing this to you.

[Virgil]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

First of all, do you live in Armenia? I see many Armenians who live in the US demand land for Armenia, which to me is hypocritical. Those lands were stolen from the Native Americans. This 'stolen items' argument is weak and it only serves to cloud the issue which I thought was genocide.

This discussion isn't going anywhere. I made an effort but its too difficult to overcome the hatred some of you have towards Turks. When you start accusing new born babies of crimes based on their bloodline - thats called racism.

Seriously, your a idiot, genocide is genocide, but Sephan is right and there are more valid reasons why your argument does not hold.

[Timetells]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

The US has VERY openly admitted (and continues to admit) its genocidal crimes against the Native Americans. -Sip

Sip - The US has never recognized the genocide against Native Americans. If I am wrong please provide a source to prove otherwise. And no, I am not trying to justify one genocide with another, not at all but I am in favor of recognizing all genocide's that took place in history. I value all life, and my views are not skewed by racism, hate, nationalism etc unlike lots of other people.

No, you are ridiculous for coming to a Armenian forum with an intent to "mend relations" and then once given the chance to speak, you just spit in our face again. - Virgil

Virgil - you are suggesting people are guilty of crimes committed by someone who happens to be 'connected' to them via bloodline and of crimes that occurred when they were not even in existence. You support this view by referencing the Mafia. With all due respect, but YES that line of thinking is ridiculous. You have to be specific in who you are targeting.

consider the multiple threads of Armenian guy or girl xyz that asks dumb questions like "Hey, do you think its ok if we date Turks", "Is marrying a Turk ok", some abnormality along those lines -Virgil

I view this statement as clearly racist. All people regardless of race, religion etc are the same. Being proud of your heritage is one thing, but there is a line when crossed it becomes something very ugly.


I think some of you are blinded by your hate and it has become a part of your identity that you do not want to part from it. I probably represent a more threat to you than say an ultra-nationalistic Turk. The last thing I think some of you want is for Turks and Armenians to come together and talk things out. Good for you, I cannot judge all Armenians based on the posts of a few here but just as I have seen elements in Turkish society that are unapproachable on such topics - I am seeing the same here amongst Armenians.

I am fortunate though, when I was young I had Armenian friends. I got to know their family and before knowing the history I got to know them as friends. Years later again I was able to have the good fortune of meeting other Armenians. One Aras, was by far the most hilarious person I ever met. He was a Muslim Armenian though but my god, the man could tell jokes etc like no other. Seeing how much animosity is between Turks and Armenians I now realize how lucky I was. If more Turks and Armenians could sit down, talk, get to know each other, then I would like to think the chances for reconciliation would be greater.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Look, I don't hate you. I don't know you but I don't care either. However, the point is, you are trying to go against the grain in an Armenian forum, when you know deep down, no one is going to see the way you see it. And from the looks of it, you ain't seeing this side of the grass, so there ain't no point in discussing this any further.

It's the same issues rehashed and restated. So when people name call you, it is a very sensitive matter to many Armenians. When you come in here and repeatedly state what you state (i.e., deny - but in a much more subtle way), people take more offense to that, than if you openly came out and proclaimed, "Hey, I deny this ever happened and I don't believe one word you are saying."

Essentially, that is your position, but you are just packaging this bromide in neat little packages, and expect people here to open it. They won't it.

Now, if you are getting alot of negative reactions and posts, this comes with the territory I hate to say it. Know that I do not hate you or what not you believe. However, I do find your presence here a question now. What are you trying to achieve? We are diametrically opposed on all issues. The 'debate' (if there ever was one to begin with) is at a stand still. At this point, let's call this discussion over.

Know that you are not the first, nor will you be the last Turk to come in here to try to change our minds. But at least, you made a civil approach, which that at least I can respect. But beyond that, there is nothing new under the sun.

[Virgil]

Re: Innocent Until Proven Guilty

Sip - The US has never recognized the genocide against Native Americans.

And no, I am not trying to justify one genocide for another, not at all but I am in favor of recognizing all genocide's that took place in history. I value all life, and my views are now skewed by racism, hate, nationalism etc unlike lots of other people.

First and foremost, these two statements contridict one another and yes, you are trying to justify genocide, you are a hypocrit and a genocide denier. There exists no rational in bringing up Native Americans unless you want make it a point that "genocide can be denied and because it can be denied, why should Turks not deny it", but this is a flawed argument and the only reason you brought it up was like I mentioned earlier, to essentially say, "hey you Armenian losers, the United States does not recognize it, so we shouln't, live with it", this is the logic that you my half witted pet hamster are using, so yes, you are denying genocide and supporting the Turkish state, yes, you are responsible for the genocide, yes, you are a war criminal, and if I had the power in me I would plead my case to a third party.

However, due to misfortunes of history, we neither have the power to force you into accepting the truth or are living in a world with any sense of justice and values that can resolve the issue, so, by default you are winning, but understand you are not winning because you are honorable, noble, and, certainly, you are not winning because your right or have any sort of historic truth behind you. You are winning because just men were cowards in the face of responsiblities and today it is this same weakness that has contributed to the degeneration of mankind, go on with your corrupt legacy and false honor, it will only make the truth more pitiful for you to accept.

Virgil - you are suggesting people are guilty of crimes committed by someone who happens to be 'connected' to them via bloodline and of crimes that occurred when they were not even in existence. You support this view by referencing the Mafia. With all due respect, but YES that line of thinking is ridiculous. You have to be specific in who you are targeting if you are seeking justice.

No, "wall", I am saying that if your dad is criminal and he builds his wealth via criminal enterprise then anyone benefiting from his criminal empire is also guilty of the crime if they do realize where the source of income is coming from. As to who is "specifically" guilty, in my opinion, any entity that is using our genocide as a political handgun, any Turk that is supporting the Turkish state, any foreign state or lobby that uses the genocide deniel as a barginning chip, and finally the Turkish state are all guilty of the crime, genocide. Unless you have dawn syndrome I don't see how my point was not made.

I think some of you are blinded by your hate and it has become a part of your identity that you do not want to part from it. I probably represent a more threat to you than say an ultra-nationalistic Turk. The last thing I think some of you want is for Turks and Armenians to come together and talk things out. Good for you, I cannot judge all Armenians based on the posts of a few here but just as I have seen elements in Turkish society that are unapproachable on such topics - I am seeing the same here amongst Armenians.

Stop with the window dressing, jesus christ, can you once stop referring to Armenians as nationalistic? They lack nationalism, jackass, if they were nationalistic they would have had control over their property, instead, some nationalistic half witted barbarians stole it from them by the very same means you are accusing Armenains of possessing. If they were nationalistic their leaders wouldn't have sold their people out to be lap dogs for Turkish governments and certainly, you would not find one Armenian Istanbul today, they would all be Yerevan with the rest of the Armenians all over the world. Truly the irony, Armenians really did dig their own grave, I still am shocked that we actually gave these people the means to wipe to us out, even the soldiers uniforms were made by Armenians. Every Turk xyz that tries to debate or sound sincere has to evalutate what they are talking about because to me, all it is just insincere garbage and redundency. At least if you are going to deny somthing, have a solid argument or else you look like a idiot.