Armenian Genocide Issue In Argentina

[GOARAVE]

Please read 1.5 million

My post was intact. You should have quote to my whole post. I have stated that the positons of CUP is not justified. On the other hand, Germans were the one that pulled Ottomans in War by bombarding Sivastapol,Russia.They used their own ships with ottoman flags to carry on their dirty campaign to
expand the world war. You think it is logical for ottomans, who had enough battle fields on all sides and add big miltary power such as Russia to their list?


May God Bless all humanity!

I have to say that you are very unclear hear. These statements make me wonder just how much you understand about CUP policies and the Armenian genocide (which clearly is correctly termed a genocide - by definition in fact). I think I also shoudl remind you that it was the Ottomans who first attacked Russia and entered intoa secret past with Germany to undertake this war. The CUP had a Pan_Turanic vision - of expanding the Turkish Empire - and excluding those who were neither Turk nor Moslem. You also probably don't realise that the main Armenian revolutionary party had cooperated heavily with the CUP right up until the CUP betryad them in 1915. The CUP was the great betrayer - not only of Armenians but of all Turks. The failure of many Turks to realise/admit this is really problematic. But in fact most Turks really know very little about this history and are making judgements based on peivcemeal propoganda that originated from these very CUP criminals and of course there has been a whole history of myth built up from this day through the Republican days with so much garbage being repeated from the Turkish side. Your expression of Turks being besiegied by land claims form all sides - etc - is an indication that in fact you are one of these Turks who has accepted these rather dubious notions and that such things have clouded your mind from truly understanding the great tragedy and crime of the time - that of the Armenian genocide - which I am sorry to say is as real and as true as it gets - and where the blame for such falls entirely upon the CUP/Ottoman Turks.

[1.5 million]

If you think that the Germans did such on their own - and that Enver & the rest of the CUP leadership had no say in such then you are a fool. They thought that the Germans were going to win and thus they saw the war as an oppurtunity to gain ground in the East at Russia's expense...and they also saw the war as a cover for their planned dirty work against the Armenians - this was implicit in their thinking regarding going to war - and in fact they begun their campaign in ther Caucases long before the Goeben and Breslau fired upon Russian ports in October of 1914. The CUP Special Organization had already been active in the Caucuses for the better part of that year and had already begun massacreing of Armenian villages and the campaign of ethnic cleansing that teh CUP felt was needed to pave the way for the Pan-Turan alliance/expansion to the East.

[Joseph]

I would like to let you know that I have a clear understanding that this forum is solely dedicated to the Armenian case and I am not here to prove my points but merely to have an clear understanding of ongoing hatred. Again, I had many Armenian friends here in states met through college and we never had one confrontation regarding this issue.

I want to avoid some misunderstandings with regards to my previous posts. I have never implied that genocide term is appropriate to what happened back then. But it is true that both peasant villager Turks and Armenians paid heavy prices as a result of Ottomans poor handling of war time politics. This includes Kurds, Greeks, and other minorities. Ottomans were under attack from east-west-north and south and they clearly were threaten with land claims from all sides. I clearly acknowledge that Armenians rest their case internationally but it was wrong to label these to modern day Turks. Again, it looks like there are some contradictions how the history interperted. As a matter of fact, my mother in law's father was Armenian and Mother was Turkish. My mother in law states that, who is half armenian, her father owned 1/3 of eastern Erzrum until 1958 before his mistress bribed half of it on her and lost rest on gambling.It is obvious that full blood Armenian could have owned land in repuclican era and there was no clear confistication of lands.(Eastern Erzrum- Little bit more than the size of Vatican)

On the other hand, it is true that Ataturk was a nationalist and therefore, there is nothing wrong with his victorous ideals for Turks to have a Land that they can call Turkiye. My father's grand grand parents are convert Bulgarian Christians and My mother's parents are actually Slavian Muslims. Again, it is true There is not a single full blood Turk that can claim their heritage to Pre-Ottomans before 1299. Pure Oghuz Turk blood was already started to shake when Osman 1's son Orhan accepted a Serbian woman as his bride. Today, most of the Turks accept and happy to call themselves Turk as an concept that was clearly stated by Ataturk. Most of the Young Turk's, referring the so called pan-Turanistic movement, were french educated, I stareted to suspect that French is not norm for peace. Looking back to their savage history. Ottomans just started to look like them after they accepted the stupid idea of if we mock them, we might be accepted as a modernised nation.(1699 Treaty of Karlofca) the decline of the empire after 4 centuries. Again, French likes to play two sides.

I hate repeat myself but I am going to do this once. I feel for every innocent souls IN THE WORLD that were sacrificied in the name of big NOTHING AND I CHOOSE TO PRAY FOR ALL OF THEM. But some causes, like ATATURK, was inevitable so many peoples can call a piece of land their home(I N THE NAME OF TODAYS CURRENT WORLD POLITICS) By the way, it is amazing to find a big Turkish-Armenian businessman partnership DFH(Turkish TV Satellite in U.S.A) Globalization clearly does not recognise races.

ONE GOD

ONE NATION= Earth ONE RACE=Human

I knew this was coming. It was just a matter of time before he displayed his true colors.

Poor handling of the war, eh? How about blaming the CUP for getting Turkey involved in the mess to begin with? How about the Turkish/Muslim majority scapegoating and massacring the Christian population en masse (not just Armenians, but Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, Chaldeans) at the outset of the war? How about blaming the Turks for their own misrule? How about realizing that the Ottoman Empire, like all empires, was a bad thing? How about peoples in the Balkans, the Caucasus and the M.E. wanting to determine their own destinies and rule themselves ---on their own land?

Turks are always blaming someone else: They blame the Liberal movement of Europe in the 18th century, missionaries, foreign governments, wealthy minorities, etc.

The Ottoman Empire only lasted as long as it did because the British and French propped them up as a counterwieght to Russian expansion. This is hardly ever acknowledged by the Turks (ex: Crimean War, Congress of Berlin after 1877-78 Russo-Turkish War)


What was left of the Ottoman Empire was attacked because it entered a war on the side of the Axis. The Turks picked the fight with the Russians. Furthermore, they lost additional territories because the people who lived under Ottoman rule, such as the Arabs, wanted freedom from Turkish rule.

Whenever Turks ask us to remember all the victims of WWI, it makes me think of how disgusting it would be to ask Jews to lament the deaths of Germans at places such as Dresden or the Russina entry into Berlin. It's unreasonable and unfathomable.

Furthermore, its very easy for Turkey to tell everyone to forgive and forget while they never look in the mirror and place the blame squarely where it belongs, themselves.

Ataturk or modern Turkey is neither here nor there; you seem to brush off the CUP (and to a lesser degree Abdul Hamid II) as most Turks do but meanwhile it doesnt change the fact that they orchestrated a Genocide. Because a partially Armenians relative (who was probably a Muslim) owned some property in Erzerum in the 1950's does not change the fact that the CUP essentially cleansed Anatolia (not to mention parts of the Caucasus, Northern Iran, and the Levant) of its Christian population.

To bring up the fact that you have Armenians friends, or partially Armenian relatives is an insult. It's like those people that say the could never be prejudiced against blacks because the have black friends, etc.

[GOARAVE]

ThankYou For your Reply.
I clearly stated my position in this forum on the general discussions under "may peace be upon us". If you have time please read. I will never contradict myself in any manners. This forum is dedicated to a certain cause which is understandable.Overall, I read but choose to draw my own conclusions.I am not representing any sides but only here to feed my own intellectuality.That's why I'm in this forum is to get different perspective from live persons. To weight the evidence and come to an understanding of my own.(Read,Talk,Weigh, and then consider) I appreciate your review of the history in regards to my post but I do not understand what did you think was coming and referring to me as I change colors.(Hatred is inveterate anger)

I am not pan-turk and actually accept the fact that nothing will stand forever. We, as in humanity, all destined to after life. When we are judged, we will not be judged for our national identity but for our personal good and bad deeds. All, I stand for was Ataturk had to do something because that's what world politics required.

Racial segregation is not in my dictionary. I mentioned my Armenian friends not to demagogise but to indicate that human relations does not recognise races. Race is only a political term.

I believe we have better understanding as far as my position in this forum.

Only power people have are within their heart.

One God, One Nation:Planet Earth, One Race:Human

I knew this was coming. It was just a matter of time before he displayed his true colors.

Poor handling of the war, eh? How about blaming the CUP for getting Turkey involved in the mess to begin with? How about the Turkish/Muslim majority scapegoating and massacring the Christian population en masse (not just Armenians, but Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, Chaldeans) at the outset of the war? How about blaming the Turks for their own misrule? How about realizing that the Ottoman Empire, like all empires, was a bad thing? How about peoples in the Balkans, the Caucasus and the M.E. wanting to determine their own destinies and rule themselves ---on their own land?

Turks are always blaming someone else: They blame the Liberal movement of Europe in the 18th century, missionaries, foreign governments, wealthy minorities, etc.

The Ottoman Empire only lasted as long as it did because the British and French propped them up as a counterwieght to Russian expansion. This is hardly ever acknowledged by the Turks (ex: Crimean War, Congress of Berlin after 1877-78 Russo-Turkish War)


What was left of the Ottoman Empire was attacked because it entered a war on the side of the Axis. The Turks picked the fight with the Russians. Furthermore, they lost additional territories because the people who lived under Ottoman rule, such as the Arabs, wanted freedom from Turkish rule.

Whenever Turks ask us to remember all the victims of WWI, it makes me think of how disgusting it would be to ask Jews to lament the deaths of Germans at places such as Dresden or the Russina entry into Berlin. It's unreasonable and unfathomable.

Furthermore, its very easy for Turkey to tell everyone to forgive and forget while they never look in the mirror and place the blame squarely where it belongs, themselves.

Ataturk or modern Turkey is neither here nor there; you seem to brush off the CUP (and to a lesser degree Abdul Hamid II) as most Turks do but meanwhile it doesnt change the fact that they orchestrated a Genocide. Because a partially Armenians relative (who was probably a Muslim) owned some property in Erzerum in the 1950's does not change the fact that the CUP essentially cleansed Anatolia (not to mention parts of the Caucasus, Northern Iran, and the Levant) of its Christian population.

To bring up the fact that you have Armenians friends, or partially Armenian relatives is an insult. It's like those people that say the could never be prejudiced against blacks because the have black friends, etc.

[GOARAVE]

There is no bigger fool than the person that boasts of their knowledge
They that are truly wise never finish learning.
Thank you for your reply.

If you think that the Germans did such on their own - and that Enver & the rest of the CUP leadership had no say in such then you are a fool. They thought that the Germans were going to win and thus they saw the war as an oppurtunity to gain ground in the East at Russia's expense...and they also saw the war as a cover for their planned dirty work against the Armenians - this was implicit in their thinking regarding going to war - and in fact they begun their campaign in ther Caucases long before the Goeben and Breslau fired upon Russian ports in October of 1914. The CUP Special Organization had already been active in the Caucuses for the better part of that year and had already begun massacreing of Armenian villages and the campaign of ethnic cleansing that teh CUP felt was needed to pave the way for the Pan-Turan alliance/expansion to the East.

[1.5 million]

There is no bigger fool than the person that boasts of their knowledge
They that are truly wise never finish learning.
Thank you for your reply.

Perhaps but correctly pointing out where another aparently lacks knowledge is another matter...then the one who replies by smugly uttering an irrelevant quote is truly the fool(ish)

[GOARAVE]

Most Duels have their winner but the one that will go on forever is the duel between yes and no.So I decided to take bullet and for humanity sake I believe you can write your posts without calling names. As I am trying to explore the facts from different perspective. So, I believe we can really get into the forum now.

I know many turkish speaking armenians survived the death walk. I wonder any of these survivors managed to wrap their memoirs into the book. If you have any links, that will be helpful, too. There should be more than pictures and first hand foreigners archives to the genocide issue. I think this kind a info would be more enlighting.

Perhaps but correctly pointing out where another aparently lacks knowledge is another matter...then the one who replies by smugly uttering an irrelevant quote is truly the fool(ish)

[1.5 million]

Most Duels have their winner but the one that will go on forever is the duel between yes and no.So I decided to take bullet and for humanity sake I believe you can write your posts without calling names. As I am trying to explore the facts from different perspective. So, I believe we can really get into the forum now.

? Yes there was a Genocide. No you will never be able to refute this. In this case the yes & nos are in agreement. It is only those with their head in the sand who cannot see the light.

I know many turkish speaking armenians survived the death walk. I wonder any of these survivors managed to wrap their memoirs into the book. If you have any links, that will be helpful, too. There should be more than pictures and first hand foreigners archives to the genocide issue. I think this kind a info would be more enlighting.

There are a great many of such accounts...perhaps linking you to Amazon.com or a bus ticket to a library (Oh forgot - you are in Turkey...so thats a no go)...and not really so many - comparatively speaking - to the numbers who started out on such deathmarches - did survive...most of those who did seem to have been children. Perhaps also you should check out the web site "20voices" So just what are you after anyway? We certainly know the stories and we know the history. What value do you bring beyond your tie dye t-shirt? Peace man.....

[Steph]

excuse me, I'm not the world's greatest intellect but not stupid either, however I'm really losing the trail of this thread.
Goroave, you're talking in circles without saying very much..
The indoctrination in Turkey is so ingrained that it needs to be seen.
My German friend's wife, a Turk, believes that Armenians are a type of Turk!!!!
I've not encountered such intransigent resistance to reality as I have seen from Turks on this and other forums.
Perhaps my thoughts about man are wrong or perhaps some races are more receptive to indoctrination than others.

[Steph]

If you think that the Germans did such on their own - and that Enver & the rest of the CUP leadership had no say in such then you are a fool. They thought that the Germans were going to win and thus they saw the war as an oppurtunity to gain ground in the East at Russia's expense...and they also saw the war as a cover for their planned dirty work against the Armenians - this was implicit in their thinking regarding going to war - and in fact they begun their campaign in ther Caucases long before the Goeben and Breslau fired upon Russian ports in October of 1914. The CUP Special Organization had already been active in the Caucuses for the better part of that year and had already begun massacreing of Armenian villages and the campaign of ethnic cleansing that teh CUP felt was needed to pave the way for the Pan-Turan alliance/expansion to the East.

I'm currently reading Hayk Ghazarian's compelling book on the Genocide, The Genocide of the Armenian People in the Ottoman Empire
Not an easy book to read, but undoubtedly an incredibly difficult one to write. A pity it's not available in all lands.