Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

France Rejects Genocide Bill

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Turkey Declares Diplomatic War By Harut Sassounian

    Turkey Declares Diplomatic War
    On France on Armenian Genocide Law
    By Harut Sassounian
    Publisher, The California Courier
    May 18, 2006
    The Turkish government gets embroiled in diplomatic conflicts every time that a country acknowledges the Armenian Genocide. However, what happened this month is extraordinary even by Turkish standards. Ankara simultaneously recalled its ambassadors from France and Canada to express its displeasure at these countries’ stands on the Armenian issue.
    The confrontation with Paris has much more serious repercussions as Turkey is caught between needing France’s support to join the European Union and going on an all-out offensive attempting to stop the French Parliament from adopting a law on May 18 that would make the denial of the Armenian Genocide a criminal offense.
    After recalling its Ambassador to France, Ankara threatened to exclude French companies from multi-billion dollar tenders, called for a boycott of French products, rallied the Turkish community in France against this law, placed ads in various French newspapers, pressured French companies operating in Turkey to lobby against this bill, and dispatched teams of Turkish politicians, trade union officials and businessmen to Paris to dissuade the French Parliament from such action. Both the Turkish Prime Minister and Foreign Minister met with their French counterparts, urging them to prevent their Parliament from considering such a law.
    The Turkish government is outraged that the Armenian Genocide issue is being raised once again in the heart of Europe, despite Ankara’s extensive efforts to relegate this "tragedy" to the dustbin of history. Consequently, Turkey has resorted to all sorts of political and economic pressures, even threats and blackmail, to thwart the passage of the new law. In their desperation, Turkish leaders have shamelessly tried to use the argument that the ban on genocide denial would constitute suppression of freedom of __expression!
    Turkey is in no position to lecture anyone, especially a democracy like France, about the protection of civil rights. A pariah state like Turkey, that has long violated just about every human right of its citizens, makes itself the laughing stock of the entire world when it tries to give lessons to Europeans on civil liberties. The fact is that Turkey is using all possible means in its disposal and making up ridiculous arguments in order to silence discussion of the Armenian Genocide in France.
    Regrettably, it appears that even some highly-educated and independent-minded Turkish individuals, along with a handful of Armenians, have been fooled by the shenanigans of the denialist leaders in Turkey.
    Since these otherwise reputable individuals have come forward opposing the French bill on grounds that it limits freedom of __expression, I must say that in a perfect world no government should restrict any of the liberties of its citizens. As the publisher of a newspaper, I value highly freedom of the press and take full advantage of it in my weekly columns. However, I realize that even in the United States, where such freedoms are cherished and zealously guarded, legal limits have been placed on them, such as libel, defamation and fraud. Freedom of speech is therefore not an absolute right in the United States, and even less so in France, where verbally assaulting the dignity of an individual is itself a crime under French law!
    Many European countries, where such freedoms are further restricted by outlawing racism, anti-Semitism, and advocacy of crimes against humanity, have laws that specifically criminalize the denial of the Jewish Holocaust. Such restrictions have not only been sanctioned by national laws, but by the European Court for Human Rights.
    Isn’t it ironic that neither a single Turkish official nor any of those siding with Turkey’s position on this bill have uttered a single word against such restrictions on freedom of speech in a dozen or so European countries? But, all of a sudden, when the French Parliament considers making the denial of the Armenian Genocide a criminal offense, all sorts of complaints are voiced about the sanctity and inviolability of freedom of speech. There seems to be an unacceptable double standard in this matter. Logically, either these other laws are also considered to be restrictive of the freedom of speech, in which case Ankara should have complained about them years ago, or they are not, in which case Turkish officials should not utter a single word of complaint now!
    Last week, nine prominent citizens of Turkey (Murat Belge, Halil Berktay, Hrant Dink, Muge Gocek, Ahmet Insel, Etyen Mahcubyan, Baskin Oran, Elif Shafak, and Ragip Zarakolu) who are well-known for their opposition to the Turkish state’s denial of the Armenian Genocide, surprised everyone by issuing a hasty statement which put them inadvertently and uncomfortably in bed with Genocide denialists! They condemned the proposed French law by claiming that the ban on the denial of the Armenian Genocide would not only curb free discussion of this issue in France, but even more so in Turkey.
    These professors and journalists, who are frequently accused of being traitors to their nation by the Turkish "deep state," were probably trying to rehabilitate their reputations in Turkey by issuing a statement that criticized both Armenians and Turks. However, they seem to have overlooked five key points in making their joint declaration:
    Their utopian view of freedom of __expression contradicts the Europeans’ long-standing acceptance of certain restrictions for the sake of higher values, such as the rights and dignity of the victims of racism, genocide and crimes against humanity.
    These nine individuals singled out the proposed ban on the denial of the Armenian Genocide in France, while remaining silent on the criminalization of the denial of the Holocaust throughout Europe. Why is the former considered suppression of free speech, while the latter is not?
    No moral equivalence should be drawn between laws in Europe banning the denial of the Armenian Genocide and Turkish laws banning its recognition. In Europe, it is against the law to lie, while in Turkey, it is against the law to tell the truth on genocide!
    They unfairly accuse "Armenian nationalists" for supporting laws limiting freedom of __expression in France. This law is being debated and considered not by "Armenian nationalists" but by the French Parliament. It is simply untrue that the Armenian minority in France, that constitutes less than 1% of the country’s population, controls the French Parliament’s actions and decisions. Similar laws have been or are being passed also in Belgium, Germany and Switzerland. Do "Armenian nationalists" control the parliaments of these countries too?
    The proposed law, if adopted, would not ban the discussion or even the debate on the facts of the Armenian Genocide. It would simply ban its denial.
    The rationale behind the French Parliament’s intent to pass such a law is very simple and straightforward. When the French government adopted a law in January 2001, stating that France recognized the Armenian Genocide, no punitive damages were assigned for those violating that law. The French Parliament is now trying to correct that oversight by prescribing a punishment for those denying the Armenian Genocide. This is why the title page of the proposed law states that it is intended for the "completion" of the law of 2001.
    Finally, all those who are unhappy that such a law is being considered by the French Parliament, should note that the survivors of the Armenian Genocide, 91 years after the fact, are still hounded by a country that brings to bear all of its powerful political and economic resources to boycott, bully and threaten everyone around the world, from journalists to politicians, in order to silence any and all mention of the Armenian Genocide. The descendants of the survivors of the Armenian Genocide, who are engaged in a David vs. Goliath struggle, use what little clout they can muster to counter the onslaught of the Turkish state, which makes no distinction between legal and illegal means, and shows no regard for any kind of rights, starting from the right to life and ending with the right to be free of abuse and insults. All the while, the fledgling Republic of Armenia, due to its many domestic problems, is unable to come to the defense of its compatriots scattered in the four corners of the globe, leaving them alone to fend for themselves in the face of the massive Turkish assault.
    The proposed French law also corrects the existing imbalance in French law between punishing the denial of the Holocaust, but not the denial of the Armenian Genocide. It eliminates a glaring double standard! All those who are siding with the denialist Turkish state on this bill are consciously or unconsciously backing the victimizers against the victims! Since the final stage of any genocide is its denial, and since committing genocide is punishable by law, so should its denial!
    Even if this law is not adopted this week by the French Parliament, the bullying behavior exhibited once again by the Turkish government on this occasion, would surely further erode its low standing in the eyes of the European public. A country that uses threats and boycotts against its future partners cannot then turn around and ask for their support to gain entry into the European Union.
    Furthermore, thanks to the Turkish overreaction to this proposed law, Ankara has once again managed to do something Armenians could never have accomplished on their own: it has placed the Armenian Genocide issue on the front pages of newspapers around Europe and indeed around the world. The only thing that would top this in the future is if the Turkish government would repeat its erratic behavior in many more countries. Should that happen, Turkey would withdraw its ambassadors from several countries, cancel all trade, boycott foreign products, and become an isolated pariah state – a fitting punishment for a denialist regime!






    Gav-I agree with everything stated above except the bold area done by me.

    I don't appreciate the patronizing tone of "that statement". It is not necessary to talk abot our country in a belittling way ,because its a fact that the goverment of Armenia allmost all the time takes their lead from us the diaspora on the genocide issue and their position on French law has nothing to do with anything other then as diplomats they have their own guidlines as to when interference in other country's laws are important,I think the statement was over-exubarance on Mr.Sassounian's part with a litlle mixture of self-pity, which I'm very surprised to find in his immpacable carrer as a publisher.
    I hope hes not implying that A.R. trying to appaese some outside forces by showing inaction.I may be making a big deal of this but the reason it irked me was it reminded me of some members of this forum who passed through here (and out for good i hope ) said somethings in regards to the issue of who is being Armenian enough and so on.
    "All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

    Comment


    • #22
      Genocide term prompts Turkish snub

      Genocide term prompts Turkish snub
      by
      Monday 08 May 2006 12:14 PM GMT




      Turkey has recalled its ambassadors to France and Canada for consultations in a row over Armenian deaths during the first world war.




      Both France and Canada acknowledge the mass killings of Armenians was a genocide.

      The temporary recall of the diplomats was Turkey's latest move against increasing international pressure on the country to recognise the killings as genocide.

      Turks say the death count is inflated and insist that Armenians were killed or displaced as the Ottoman Empire tried to secure its border with Russia and stop attacks by Armenian militants.

      Turkey recently criticised Stephen Harper, the Canadian prime minister, for remarks he made in support of recognising the mass killings as genocide, and said that such statements threatened Turkish-Canadian relations.



      Turkey has also warned French politicians not to approve a draft law which would make the denial of the genocide a crime.



      France's parliament is set to consider next week a one-article bill, which would make it a crime to deny the Armenian genocide of 1915. It is already an offence in France to deny the Holocaust of the second world war.



      Armenians say 1.5 million of their people were killed as the Ottoman Empire forced them from eastern Turkey between 1915 and 1923 - and that this was a deliberate campaign of genocide by Turkey's rulers at that time.


      AP
      By

      You can find this article at:
      News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule.

      Comment


      • #23
        Hovig no offence but even the Turkish press stopped using "Armenians say"
        (Boy am I in a talketive mood today somebody stoppp me)term so they wont open the door to comebacks like 20 country's say most non-Armenian scholars of the subject say so on.I have stopped posting any articles that uses that term simply because it doesnt anymore reflect the current position of their canned denialist respond by us diasporans activism we heave allready limited their vocabulary and thats a small but signifacant movement .That phrase in that article just makes it look outdated.
        "All truth passes through three stages:
        First, it is ridiculed;
        Second, it is violently opposed; and
        Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

        Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

        Comment


        • #24
          France Shelves Armenian Genocide Debate

          May 18, 2006 -- The French parliament has put off indefinitely a debate on a bill that would make it a crime to deny that the killings of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey during World War I constituted a genocide.


          France recognized the killings as genocide five years ago. Under the proposed new bill, denying the genocide would be punishable by a year in prison and a fine of 45,000 euros (more than $57,000)

          Turkey has always denied the genocide assertions, saying the Armenians died in civil unrest.

          Earlier today, French Foreign Minister Filippe Douste-Blazy told lawmakers that adoption of the proposed bill would have "serious political consequences."

          "If the text [of the draft bill] presented to you today was to be adopted it would be considered as an unfriendly gesture by a vast majority of the Turkish people," Douste-Blazy said. "This would inevitably have serious political consequences and weaken our influence not only in Turkey itself but also beyond, in the whole region."


          Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan had warned that the passage of the bill would further damage already strained relations between the two countries.

          Turkey's policy over the deaths of up to 1.5 million Armenians between 1915 and 1919 is seen as being at odds with its bid to join the European Union.

          (AP)
          "All truth passes through three stages:
          First, it is ridiculed;
          Second, it is violently opposed; and
          Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

          Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

          Comment


          • #25
            Video: France discusses controversial bill on Armenian genocide

            "All truth passes through three stages:
            First, it is ridiculed;
            Second, it is violently opposed; and
            Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

            Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

            Comment


            • #26
              Read and learn son!
              If you can?
              "All truth passes through three stages:
              First, it is ridiculed;
              Second, it is violently opposed; and
              Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

              Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Sinan
                Hi everybody,I am sinan from Istanbul and I am pride of my ancestor,ottoman empire.I wonder why armenian want to persuade all the world that ottoman empire kill armenian during the world 1 war.Why Ottoman empire had not kill armenian before.Why did they waitded so long time to kill armenian.And why,why,why?I know what happend in anatolia during the war 1.the Armenian and Russian killed many turkish people .ther were many armenian terrorist killed women,elder,babies.They attacked turkish villages,cities.After tahtOttoman decided to change armenian accomadation in anatolia.And then big migration started in there.Many armenian died during the migration.that was all.
                Wow Sinan. None of us have ever heard those explanations before and you have educated us all. And here we were, setting up this forum and discussing it for several years and all the while, you had the real answers. If only we knew you before. You should think about pursuing a teaching degree.

                Sinan, we all know the real truth. Turks never killed any Armenians. The Armenians marched themsleves into the Syrian desert and after having a picnic hosted by the Turkish authorities, proceeded to kill themselves. They did this because they had such tremendous guilt for starting a uprising against the Turks and using an army of 1 million Armenian women and children (which was sponsored by all the Christian nations on the earth) they then killed 5 million Turks, good peaceful Muslims. It was also the Armenians fault that Turkey entered WWI and that the Balkan territories were lost. The uppity Armenians had the nerve to ask for reforms and got what was coming to them.
                General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Gavur
                  Read and learn son!
                  If you can?
                  I love these guys. Whenever the Armenian Genocide issue heats up, they show up in droves, make ignorant posts, and promptly crawl back into their pits. Ulusaci? (sp?), one of the great unwashed?

                  This has nothing to do with some of our other Turkish members who actually have something to say or add.
                  General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Uproar in French assembly after vote on Armenian genocide shelved

                    Web posted at: 5/19/2006 4:3:35
                    Source ::: AFP
                    PARIS • Angry scenes broke out in the French National Assembly yesterday after lawmakers were forced to call off a vote on a bill that would make it a punishable offence to deny the Armenian “genocide”.

                    Debate on the opposition bill – which has sparked a diplomatic row between France and Turkey – started late, and the time allocated for its discussion ran out before a vote could take place.

                    Discussion of the controversial text will now be pushed back to October at the earliest, under the parliamentary calendar.

                    Shouts filled the assembly as the bill’s supporters accused members of the ruling Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) of stalling debate.
                    The Peninsula brings the latest news from Qatar and around the world. We also cover in detail football, cricket, business, entertainment, Bollywood, Hollywood, Science, Technology, Health, Fitness and opinions from leading columnists.

                    Dozens of lawmakers – angrily yelling “Vote! Vote!” – had to be evacuated from the building after the leader of the assembly declared the session closed.

                    Earlier Foreign Minister Douste-Blazy came out openly against the bill, which follows on from a 2001 French law officially recognising the Turkish massacres of Armenians at the end of World War I as genocide.

                    “If adopted, this text would be seen as an unfriendly gesture by the great majority of the Turkish people,” he told lawmakers, warning its adoption would have “serious political consequences and weaken our position not only in Turkey but across the entire region.”

                    “Turkey is a leading economic and trade partner... We cannot accept this bill,” Douste-Blazy said.

                    The bill would make punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of $57,000 the crime of denying that Turkish troops committed genocide against the Armenians.

                    The same punishment is on the statute books for people who deny that the Jewish Holocaust took place.
                    "All truth passes through three stages:
                    First, it is ridiculed;
                    Second, it is violently opposed; and
                    Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      FRENCH GOVERNMENTS BLOCKS PARLIAMENTARY MAJOlRITY FROM VOTINGTO OUTLAW GENOCIDEDENIAL

                      EUROPEAN ARMENIAN FEDERATION
                      for Justice and Democracy
                      Avenue de la Renaissance 10
                      B-1000 Bruxelles
                      Tel: +322 732 70 26
                      Tel/Fax: +322 732 70 27
                      Email: [email protected]

                      PRESS RELEASE
                      For immediate release
                      May 19, 2006
                      Contact: Vartenie ECHO
                      Tel: +322 732 70 26


                      FRENCH GOVERNMENTS BLOCKS PARLIAMENTARY MAJORITY FROM VOTING TO OUTLAW GENOCIDE DENIAL

                      -- President of National Assembly uses Delaying Tactics to Defer Vote
                      -- French Government Cites Economic Interests in Turkey

                      PARIS, FRANCE - The draft law establishing legal penalties for the
                      denial of the Armenian Genocide, set for a vote today of the National Assembly,
                      was blocked by Jean-Louis Debré, the National Assembly’s president, who,
                      under pressure from the French Government, deferred a vote on the
                      measure for an undetermined period.

                      The anti-denial measure was introduced by the Socialist Group as part of
                      its “Parliamentary Window." Despite the fact that it was listed as only
                      the second item on the Parliamentary agenda, President Debré effectively
                      blocked its consideration by artificially extending the first agenda
                      item by adding speakers, extending time limits, and other dilatory tactics.

                      These delaying tactics were confronted by the Socialist, Communist and
                      Centrist groups. These protests, notably that of the President of the
                      Socialist group, Jean-Marc Ayrault, led to Mr. Debré finally consenting
                      to examine the anti-denial measure during the remaining thirty minutes left
                      in the session. Mr. Debre again delayed holding a vote and, with time
                      having expired, he postponed the vote to an undefined future session.

                      Sensing the strong consensus behind the measure – and fearful of being
                      isolated within the French political establishment, the Minister of
                      Foreign Affairs, Mr Douste-Blazy, spoke against the resolution on the basis of
                      France’s economic interest in Turkey. Almost all the other speakers
                      argued in favor of sanctioning Armenian Genocide denial. Sources within
                      Parliament reported that a broad majority of members, including those in
                      the conservative majority, were prepared to vote for the resolution.

                      “We thank the deputies who, by their commitment to the struggle for
                      justice and dignity, preserved the honour and prestige of France as a nation
                      committed to these high ideals. We are however scandalized by the
                      shameful schemes employed by the French government to hamper the free _expression
                      of members of the National Assembly on this core issue of concern to the
                      conscience of all people,” said Hilda Tchoboian, President of the
                      European Armenian Federation.

                      “Both the government and the media should keep in mind the lesson of the
                      referendum on the European Constitution – namely that in a leading
                      democratic nation, such as France, the will of the people cannot be
                      ignored, deterred, or obstructed by the government. Sooner or later,
                      the imposition of penalties for Armenian Genocide denial will be adopted
                      because, in their wisdom, the French people and their elected
                      representatives understand that the true basis for peace and progress
                      are justice and the dignity,” concluded Tchoboian.
                      "All truth passes through three stages:
                      First, it is ridiculed;
                      Second, it is violently opposed; and
                      Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                      Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X