Obama refuses to Call Armenian Genocide a Genocide

[hipeter924]

Re: Obama refuses to Call Armenian Genocide a Genocide

No motorfokking way!

This is what those who pull the strings in the White House have fed us with all the time, conditioning us into some masochistic Pavlov dogs, waiting all year long, year after year and term after term so that they “recognize” our suffering and shed a couple crocodile tears:

I. The US president doesn't say “genocide”;
II. “Don't worry, next year the Genocide bill will pass”;
III. The bill doesn't pass, there's always a pretext to say the most worthless garbage thrown up from the pukebag of the universe, Turkey, is IMPORTANT;
IV. “Don't worry, next year the president will say “Genocide””;
V. Back to I.

Let's increase the awareness about the Wilson arbitration which will force our worthless statesmen to raise the issue of the legally valid Wilson borders, then we can:

I. render this “recognition” lever useless;
II. put the genocidal savages into a fit of panic;
III. get the upper hand, thus, making them forget about already free (albeit partly) Artsakh;
IV. force them into concessions where they'd do anything (including recognizing the AG 6 million times over) if we would leave their Turk whore alone.

All this and more, and even the possibility that someday we would actually get the territory back. If we could be resolute about this, then we wouldn't look like such losers despite an important victory in our baggage, then the Turk wouldn’t, couldn’t win and they would stink like a rotten turkey.

Let's break the chain of this vicious circle, the sooner the better.

The only way to break the chain is a congress that says yes, and a President that doesn't veto. Honestly with 47 states recognizing the genocide you will get a majority at some point.

What I am saying is you have to lobby the congress and get them to vote for you, and convince them that Turkey will still be an ally...it is at American's mercy*, it is not the other way round.

*Reasons:
- EU will not support Turkey
- Nato members can veto Turkey
- EU values Russia above Turkey -because of resources it needs from Russia
- Turkey is no friend of Russia (it is a trade partner sure...but that's where it ends)
- Turkey has little or no friends in the middle east
- If Turkey cuts ties with USA it will lose Israel as an ally
- Turkey would lose trade ties with USA+Israel it needs to survive

[Hellektor]

Re: Obama refuses to Call Armenian Genocide a Genocide

What I am saying is you have to lobby the congress and get them to vote for you, and convince them that Turkey will still be an ally...it is at American's mercy*, it is not the other way round.

*Reasons:
- EU will not support Turkey
- Nato members can veto Turkey
- EU values Russia above Turkey -because of resources it needs from Russia
- Turkey is no friend of Russia (it is a trade partner sure...but that's where it ends)
- Turkey has little or no friends in the middle east
- If Turkey cuts ties with USA it will lose Israel as an ally
- Turkey would lose trade ties with USA+Israel it needs to survive

I don't understand why you are saying these things after I have repeated a million times and I copy/paste (with some changes) one of dozens of versions of my view of Turkey:

Turkey is the most worthless, reeking liquid garbage ever to have leaked from the trashcan of the universe. The most harmful, disastrous abomination, and the most calamitous species of living organisms in creation, the Inhuman Civilization-deficiency Virus going by the four letter insult to humanity Turk has nothig, is nothing. Turkey is like an old and horrendously ugly prostitute that with an ultraheavy makeup manages to sell herself at an exorbitant price to the West and indeed all the world. Everything they say is in the line of presenting themselves as IMPORTANT.

The moment the hundreds of billions of hard earned US dollars of the citizens of the United Slaves of Israel that are shoved down the putrid throat of the Sik Fuk of Europe stop to be stuffed, the Turks will start devouring donkeys. Later when these are no more available, they will guzzle down their own whelps. Turkey won't dare hurt the jUS, they can't do shit to the jUS. It is Turkey that needs the West not vice versa.

Still not convinced? Do I need to be more dramatic and piss Anon off?

The only way to break the chain is a congress that says yes, and a President that doesn't veto. Honestly with 47 states recognizing the genocide you will get a majority at some point.

You are damn wrong. Why don't you get it?

This “recognition” issue is a lever in the hands of the Jews to push the buttons of Turks to force them into concessions and Armenians to give us false hope, endlessly waiting for it to pass so that then and ONLY THEN, we are “eligible” to demand “compensation”. Therefore, it will NEVER pass in the Congress.

Once again, I copy/paste from my mega text file, PLEASE read it:

To break this vicious circle of promises and betrayal, we should raise the awareness of the Wilson arbitration issue among all Armenians, who in turn should put the pressure on the statesmen to raise the issue of Wilson arbitration.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the Armenian Genocide. This is not about reparations. It is a dry, legal matter and no “begging” of compensation for the Genocide which will always be denied through denial of the same. With this LEGAL lever, we get the upper hand. We bypass the necessity for AG recognition and shedding of crocodile tears, a lever they don't want to let go of, exactly because they have fooled us into believing we need this in order to ask for reparations.

I repeat for the nth time and for the sake of clarity: compensation and damages we will demand when Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide, whenever that may be.

[Hellektor]

Re: Obama refuses to Call Armenian Genocide a Genocide

He will never do it. Like many other US candidates for the presidency before him (cf. Clinton, Bush), he made a point of it in his election speeches and that's all. Canvassing for voices, I call it.
The USA needs Turkey as an ally in the middle east. And for that very reason every USA president is more than ready to please Turkey. No matter what it takes. Come on, its still the game of military power.

That's the very reason why I am suspicious about this glib political talk.

The problem is while for some odd reason we want the US president to do it, we don't actually need it.

Let's be frank, what have we gained from the genocidal parasites by the “recognition” of those countries that have “recognized” the AG? Compensation from the atrocious Turk? Less than that, condemnation of the barbarians? Less than that, apology from the brazen savages? Less than that, recognition by the perpetrators? Nothing, not a thing.

Our issue with the Turks is territorial. Turks exterminated Armenians all over Turk occupied Armenia and beyond, to the detriment of their economy and progress, ONLY for territory, so that Armenia would never be liberated. This destruction of the Armenian state, and as a result, the Armenian nation is still going on in a hundred and one ways.

A proof among dozens: the talks over Artsakh where with the help of the Judeo-Saxon empires they are forcing Armenia to cede territory to the sore “Azeri” losers and perpetrators of genocide and war, and our unworthy statesmen are negotiating with them over how much historic Armenian land we are going to give them despite their miserable defeat. For the first time in over 3000 years of wars, the loser side which happens to have usurped about 90% of historically Armenian land through genocide, is actually shamelessly expecting to receive territory and our worthless politicians don’t see any problem in this.

[meline]

Re: Obama refuses to Call Armenian Genocide a Genocide

The problem is while for some odd reason we want the US president to do it, we don't actually need it.

Let's be frank, what have we gained from the genocidal parasites by the “recognition” of those countries that have “recognized” the AG? Compensation from the atrocious Turk? Less than that, condemnation of the barbarians? Less than that, apology from the brazen savages? Less than that, recognition by the perpetrators? Nothing, not a thing.

Our issue with the Turks is territorial. Turks exterminated Armenians all over Turk occupied Armenia and beyond, to the detriment of their economy and progress, ONLY for territory, so that Armenia would never be liberated. This destruction of the Armenian state, and as a result, the Armenian nation is still going on in a hundred and one ways.

A proof among dozens: the talks over Artsakh where with the help of the Judeo-Saxon empires they are forcing Armenia to cede territory to the sore “Azeri” losers and perpetrators of genocide and war, and our unworthy statesmen are negotiating with them over how much historic Armenian land we are going to give them despite their miserable defeat. For the first time in over 3000 years of wars, the loser side which happens to have usurped about 90% of historically Armenian land through genocide, is actually shamelessly expecting to receive territory and our worthless politicians don’t see any problem in this.

You are completely right, we do not need the lip service of the USA president.
He, as well as the "moderators" in the Artsakh issue are just making a political leverage out of the whole matter. Keeping Turkey in check so that it does not deviate from its role of the "trusted NATO ally". Keeping Azerbaijan in check so that Europe can still count on its possible oil supplies (cf. the Nabuko project). And frankly, I beieve it will all boil down to oil. And spheres of influence of course

[Anoush]

Re: Obama refuses to Call Armenian Genocide a Genocide

You are completely right, we do not need the lip service of the USA president.
He, as well as the "moderators" in the Artsakh issue are just making a political leverage out of the whole matter. Keeping Turkey in check so that it does not deviate from its role of the "trusted NATO ally". Keeping Azerbaijan in check so that Europe can still count on its possible oil supplies (cf. the Nabuko project). And frankly, I beieve it will all boil down to oil. And spheres of influence of course

I second your approval Meline jan. Hellektor's ideas are always welcomed by me; because not only they are absolutely the truth, also because he finds solutions for our cause (the survival of our nation's cause and how to achieve it).

[hipeter924]

Re: Obama refuses to Call Armenian Genocide a Genocide

America does not see it that way, nor does the rest of the world. Turkey is seen as to put it simply a state to be trusted...people willingly ignore the human rights record in private while condemning it in public. How do I know? Because the only thing I heard in NZ and Aus, and in the US about Turkey was actions in supporting Turkey.

In addition by making that statement Hellektor you only help their cause. Whatever Turkey is, the reality is that any form of hate speech or what appears to be hate speech is what gives Turkey strength. I don't think saying "Turkey is the most worthless, reeking liquid garbage ever to have leaked from the trashcan of the universe." in any circles will help the situation instead just convince Turks to hate you more, and for its allies to ignore you more and fight against you more.

I think a lot of Armenia's problem is that you don't realise that by simply saying the opposite of what the Turks are saying only makes you appear just as bad aka who do you support a) Extreme Nationalist Armenian b) Extreme Nationalist Turk.

You will find that both are viewed as equally unsatisfactory...now you might not be an extreme nationalist or that nationalist, and you are telling the truth but a lot of the world outside Armenia would view it that way because your anger against Turks can be easily used against you by Turkey.

Also the bill has a high chance of passing in congress, around 55% to 60% chance, you underestimate the amount of damage that Turkey's statements about the Gaza invasion have caused. Think tank groups that once supported Turkey are becoming neutral and thus increasing the chance of it passing. It isn't a matter of if it passes but when.

To finish off. Turkey will never recognize the genocide unless factors are added, something you seem to have sadly omitted.

a) Turkey has to repeal laws such as "denying turkishness"

b) Turkey has to establish a level of freedom of speech and expression that allows the Armenian Genocide to be discussed without severe government attacks on the attempts of Turks to recognize the genocide

c) Turkey and Armenia have to reduce the environment of hate and suspicion (otherwise Turks can't apologise...especially if Armenia is viewed as 'the enemy').

You cannot just pick and choose you have to have all three. Sure you could claim that you could scrape by and get genocide recognition...but scrapping by is useless. If Turkey doesn't allow free discussion of the Armenian Genocide and Turk's don't begin to recognize it as individuals what is the point.

Will the US genocide recognition make a lot of difference? No I agree. But it will make a little and that's better than nothing.

The moment that the Turkish government believes its traditional allies (Israel+US) are turning against it by recognizing the Genocide you will see a minor change in Turkey...not much but at least the start of debate and divisions within the Turkish government over genocide recognition.

As for compensation and damages. I repeat again:

a) Turkey has to repeal laws such as "denying turkishness"

b) Turkey has to establish a level of freedom of speech and expression that allows the Armenian Genocide to be discussed without severe government attacks on the attempts of Turks to recognize the genocide

c) Turkey and Armenia have to reduce the environment of hate and suspicion (otherwise Turks can't apologise...especially if Armenia is viewed as 'the enemy').

If this doesn't happen you will just be ignored and stonewalled. The fact is that Turkey could recognize the genocide and a) its citizens won't give a damn b) it could be a still a state that represses human rights of Armenian's and others c) Turkish compensation to Armenia will be lacking and Turks won't support it much

I know a bit about how people get compensation because it happens in New Zealand all the time...every year large compensation is paid to Maori for land stolen or other grievances.

In NZ people got understanding about why Maori needed to get compensation that is why most people though sometimes annoyed or irritated still support the compensation process because they understand it isn't "we have to pay tribute" but instead "we have to correct the wrongs of the past".

Till that sort of thing happens in Turkey, even though I hate to put it bluntly you will get nowhere. Its fact. Compensation only comes from understanding, recognition happens only when people do it freely and have the capacity to do if freely, and finally nothing changes if the same government in Turkey that represses its minorities still remains in place.

Many people fail to realise this...you can't just expect instant recognition or instant compensation...it takes not just time but a change in the system and the society...sure Turkey could recognize in the way you say but it would only pay lip service compensation, and the Turks hearts wouldn't be in it. I would call that a false solution.

That's my word in...maybe you hate it. But its the truth and facts as I know it.

[Hellektor]

You don't get it!

Dear hipeter924, do not see this post as an angry retort. Since the visual contact is missing on these boards, messages might be viewed in a wrong light. I am being blunt here, since you don’t seem to pay attention to what I actually say. So PLEASE (note that I constantly use the magic word) pay more attention before replying, if you are going to.

In addition by making that statement Hellektor you only help their cause.

The point which you are not getting after my graphic description of the Turk is that the Turk is our enemy. They have been our enemy since the ill day they first set hoof this side of the Caspian starting from the 11th century AD.

Also the bill has a high chance of passing in congress, around 55% to 60% chance

The other point you are not getting is that the “recognition” thing is just a lever in the hands of these bastards to emotionally blackmail Armenians and Turks whenever needed.

you underestimate the amount of damage that Turkey's statements about the Gaza invasion have caused. Think tank groups that once supported Turkey are becoming neutral and thus increasing the chance of it passing. It isn't a matter of if it passes but when.

A third point you are not getting is and I copy/paste from a previous post where this was already discussed:

“The mockery staged at Davos was nothing but a desperate attempt to increase the “importance” of the most worthless garbage residue ever to have leaked the trashcan of the universe, the Turk pestilence, since they are worried about the Iranian influence on Hammas. This was to show the Muslims, of course, the gullible, semi-literate part of them that Turkey, the No1 whore of Israel, actually cares for them and is there to defend their rights. Just ask yourselves this question: which one of the military contracts and political ties with Israel is the double-dealing Turk ready to decline? Empty howling, nothing more!”

What the masquerade actually achieved was that it lifted the eventual pressure from Turkey's donkey back by Islamic countries for its bestial sodomizing fest with Israel, and it worked like magic among the illiterate masses of fanatical Muslims.

To finish off. Turkey will never recognize the genocide unless factors are added, something you seem to have sadly omitted.

A fourth point you don't seem to get is, since I emphasize that Wilsonian Armenia has nothing to do with the “recognition” of the AG and is a purely legal lever which we got in 1920, 28 years before the adoption of genocide laws in the UN, for those who might ask “what about compensation?” I always include “compensation and damages we will demand when Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide, whenever that may be”.

This whenever does not express a time limit and does not exclude the resolution of the points you mention, so how come you arrived at the conclusion that I have ignored these facts? What I mean is, I don't give a semi-flying, swine flu infected duck for this “recognition” -with no consequences for the perpetrators- by filthy politicians for filthy political reasons. The Armenian Genocide has already been recognized by civilized human beings all over the world, wherever the issue is known. I am not saying that we should stop the battle for recognition, I'm just saying we shouldn't waste all our energy on the utterance of the term Armenian Genocide by the US president. That’s why I insist that by raising the Wilson arbitration issue we will get the upper hand and devalue the “recognition” lever.

Still don't get it? PLEASE, take your time and read this and my posts in this thread to understand what I actually say.

c) Turkey and Armenia have to reduce the environment of hate and suspicion (otherwise Turks can't apologise...especially if Armenia is viewed as 'the enemy').

You really don’t get it… Turkey has never tolerated and will never tolerate the existence of an Armenia of any shape, size or form and every single thing they say or do confirms this. They have never stopped their program of the destruction of the Armenian state and nation. This is going on according to a carefully studied multilayer, parallel plan. So what has Armenia done that you accuse them of increasing “the environment of hate and suspicion”? Quite the opposite, the unworthy, defeatist politicians of the RoA, especially the Edward and the Serj are capitulating on all the preconditions of the genocidal vermin, bringing on the eminent and certain destruction of our nation and state. Are you that blind that you don’t see this?

[hipeter924]

Re: Obama refuses to Call Armenian Genocide a Genocide

I get you now. But you might call it stubborn but I still think Turkey can change for the better and it is in Armenian's self interest for that to happen.

[Anoush]

Re: You don't get it!

Turkey has never tolerated and will never tolerate the existence of an Armenia of any shape, size or form and every single thing they say or do confirms this. They have never stopped their program of the destruction of the Armenian state and nation. This is going on according to a carefully studied multilayer, parallel plan. So what has Armenia done that you accuse them of increasing “the environment of hate and suspicion”? Quite the opposite, the unworthy, defeatist politicians of the RoA, especially the Edward and the Serj are capitulating on all the preconditions of the genocidal vermin, bringing on the eminent and certain destruction of our nation and state.

I fully agree with this statement. Our people both in Armenia and in the Diaspora should learn if they didn't already that it cannot be any normalization of relations with Turkey; because Turkey is a genocidal - militant racist state with extremely hostile and aggressive policies and positions regarding Armenia - they are just short of actual war. Turkey does not wish Armenia to exist and nor does Azerbaijan. Turkey now is using political means and ways to succeed in her continued mission of her dreams of pan-Turkism. The Armenian government must be very careful in their dealings with Turkey as Turkey is extremely cunning and deceitful towards Armenia.

After all what can you expect from the government of Turkey who has alliance with Sudan, another genocidal state. This is very troubling and shows how the cycle of genocide continues.

I have just heard that Obama will lower US aid to Armenia by 49%, and has increased 22% aid to Azerbaijan. He also broke military parity in favour of Azerbaijan. Without taking into consideration that our government in Armenia is doing what the US administration was pushing for.

[hipeter924]

Re: You don't get it!

I fully agree with this statement. Our people both in Armenia and in the Diaspora should learn if they didn't already that it cannot be any normalization of relations with Turkey; because Turkey is a genocidal - militant racist state with extremely hostile and aggressive policies and positions regarding Armenia - they are just short of actual war. Turkey does not wish Armenia to exist and nor does Azerbaijan. Turkey now is using political means and ways to succeed in her continued mission of her dreams of pan-Turkism. The Armenian government must be very careful in their dealings with Turkey as Turkey is extremely cunning and deceitful towards Armenia.

After all what can you expect from the government of Turkey who has alliance with Sudan, another genocidal state. This is very troubling and shows how the cycle of genocide continues.

I have just heard that Obama will lower US aid to Armenia by 49%, and has increased 22% aid to Azerbaijan. He also broke military parity in favour of Azerbaijan. Without taking into consideration that our government in Armenia is doing what the US administration was pushing for.

Well I used to like Obama...but after reading his book I have discovered what he really believes. The main thing I discovered:

a) Obama supports Capital Punishment*
b) He didn't mention Armenia or the Genocide once
c) He believes that the US is secular despite the dominance of Christian religion in schools and government (by this I mean the anti-evolution lobby, anti abortion lobby and all these groups that are anti-science and human rights and hate atheists)
d) He doesn't have a clear plan to fix the US economy - he basically speaks very well but doesn't say precisely how he will fix it and is incredibly vague
e) His foreign policy is a mix of Bill Clinton and GW Bush (two foreign policies that were terrible)

*I think capital punishment is wrong and the UN Declaration of Human Rights agrees